• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

[No Politics] What you need to know about CoVID-19 by SARS-CoV-2 [No Politics]

Status
Not open for further replies.

ta240

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
1,431
Likes
2,874
The 'essential' stores around here are absolutely packed with people and I'd say a quarter or fewer are wearing face coverings and maybe half pay attention to distance. The Walmart and Target parking lots are at Christmas shopping levels. Many of the kids I see are playing in large groups; farm workers I saw today were crammed in together at a small picnic table next to the field eating their lunch. All the rules are getting credit for keeping us safe but they aren't being followed by a large portion of the population. Is it just dumb luck that it hasn't spread here with less than 30 cases out of 70,000+ people or what?
 

raistlin65

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
2,279
Likes
3,421
Location
Grand Rapids, MI

Very interesting.

Other things that the cellphone data does not take into account is that with fast food, many people are going through drive thrus. They are not being exposed in the same way, nor exposing others as much, as someone who goes into the restaurant.

Gyms also have people on treadmills, riding bikes and in aerobics classes breathing hard, which also increases both the chance of spreading infection and breathing it in. And in fact, the aerobic activities are often clustered together. I wonder how gyms will address this?

Finally, there is Chuck E. Cheese. Most likely place for snot-nosed kids to sneeze all over everything. And since that my son has been an adult for several years, you couldn't pay me to go to a Chuck E. Cheese even before the outbreak. :D
 

MediumRare

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
1,959
Likes
2,287
Location
Chicago
How else can that work out. When tests are available and people are known to have it some die, the total rises. When tests aren't available some die with it we don't know about and the toll for this virus doesn't go up. We have the same problem in that we don't have a good idea how many had it out of the total population one month ago vs now. We have more tests, we have more positives, and we have a higher death toll attributed to the virus. What we don't know is did the total number of cases in the population shoot upward after the shutdown restrictions are eased or is it just coincidence with more tests all the same.

Looking at deaths per day in NYC there is unambiguous data showing a peak and deaths have dropped dramatically. However the entire state of New York has a chart not much different than Alabama. Further there is an almost matching increase in cases confirmed per day and deaths. Confirmed cases fit a timeline with loosening restrictions perhaps. The death rate however wouldn't have had time for the people just now getting the disease from eased restrictions just over a week ago to result in the same proportional increase in deaths per day. So more than likely it is at least somewhat increased testing. 3 weeks ago there was only 3 or 4 places to get tested statewide. Now several clinics have signs saying call for an appointment to get tested all over the state.

In the case with Alabama, the deaths per day haven't peaked yet, and testing was just becoming available very much at the same time. It is messy data, and it is unfortunate. But it isn't clear whether the jump in cases is due to more tests or more people contracting it after some restrictions were lifted. The rate of positive results, and deaths and tests done were all on an upward trend together over the same time. Governor could have waited longer until some peak deaths per day was reached and a decline was clear. Didn't happen so the data is unclear. It will become clear in another week to 10 days. Patience is needed. If the result does appear a large increase in the disease due to less restrictions, then maybe they'll see that and close things down again.

One other confounding bit of data. Number hospitalized with the virus currently has stayed the same and gone down recently in Alabama. Yet cases confirmed and deaths have gone up. If hospitalized cases go back up in another week, you'll have confirmation easing restrictions probably contributed to that.
I appreciate your considered response.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,793
Likes
37,702
I appreciate your considered response.
Thank you.

For what it is worth, the deaths in Alabama since yesterday were the fewest since 6 weeks ago. The numbers are low enough there is a wide daily fluctuation. We'll know in another week if re-opening was a bad idea.
 

Putter

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Messages
498
Likes
779
Location
Albany, NY USA
Thank you.

For what it is worth, the deaths in Alabama since yesterday were the fewest since 6 weeks ago. The numbers are low enough there is a wide daily fluctuation. We'll know in another week if re-opening was a bad idea.

227 - The number of nursing homes in Alabama, with 26,506 beds.

Alabama Official Stats - Nursing Homes Total 233

I'm concentrating on Nursing Homes because that's where the most vulnerable population is found.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/09/us/coronavirus-cases-nursing-homes-us.html
NY Times - A third (Actually 35%) of U.S. coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities.

Alabama
Facilities 5
Cases 1,611
Deaths 28
Share of State Deaths 7%

According to the article they don't provide facility data. It's unclear to me how much of the discrepancy is due to the Times not having complete data since there are 40 times more facilities than they list. It also seems unlikely that there is a <2% death rate in such a vulnerable population. One also can't rule out that the state is under-counting deaths in nursing homes.
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,465
Location
Australia

Don Hills

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
708
Likes
464
Location
Wellington, New Zealand
It is important to wear eye protection - such as clear glasses (zero diopter)

Modern safety glasses provide excellent eye coverage and are often surprisingly stylish. Cheap, too.
 

March Audio

Master Contributor
Audio Company
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
6,378
Likes
9,321
Location
Albany Western Australia
However, I don't think they stand up.Australia is a "standout loser" from our "strict lockdown"?
Clearly he doesn't live in Australia, the social distance policy has been pretty relaxed overall.I have actually seen more people around my streets than before the policy.People who work from home now take a run in the suburb rather than attend a gym.Or maybe it's amateur team sport players who ride a bike for exercise now.Lots of kids on bikes too, to let their parents have some time alone in the house I suppose.
Not all rainbows and sunshine, a few over zealous cops made the news, but pretty relaxed.

But the main point is that we have started to relax restrictions because we seem to have the virus under control.
So life returns to normal as fast as possible, should minimise economic loses.

Meanwhile in the USA new cases have practically not decreased at all.
So you have the worst of both worlds, much sickness and death while you draw out the economic losses.

I think "under control" is not quite the correct terminology.

In Oz the spread has been minimised by the lockdown. I wouldnt term it relaxed at all. Maybe not as strict as some countries but State borders are closed and movement between areas within the states are halted. Plus all the other restrictions on social proximity.

What we dont know is what is going to happen as restrictions are eased. FWIW my opinion is that cases will increase again which may in turn lead to some restrictions being re-imposed. If this is so we will get a saw tooth effect which will carry on for some considerable time. So to conclude this will minimise economic loss is premature.

I cant remember which minister said this but paraphrasing he said the reason that Oz hasnt gone for an eradication policy is that it would mean a guaranteed lockdown for 18 months or more.
 

Dave Zan

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Messages
169
Likes
490
Location
Canberra, Australia
I think "under control" is not quite the correct term...

Cases consistently down to a few % of the peak, less than 1% on the best days.
Active cases in continuous decline for well over a month.
Test ratios now exceed 10,000 tests to find 1 active case in most jurisdictions.
Canberra now has no active cases at all.
No deaths at all, anywhere in the country on most days recently.
Hospitals on standby with empty beds as a backup.
Still not eliminated but I find it hard to understand why you think "under control" is not correct and reasonable.
What criteria do you think still need to be met to use the phrase?

AussieOK.PNG


In Oz the spread has been minimised by the lockdown. I wouldnt term it relaxed at all...

We haven't had a "lockdown", we have no curfews, always possible to leave the house for a run, or a walk to the shops for food and other items.
No one checks you in or out of your apartment block or precinct, as in China.
As you concede, less strict than other countries.
And as I already noted, I actually see more people on the streets than prior to the social distance rules.
I even asked some of these passers-by how they felt about it. (n~20).
No one I asked considered the restrictions unreasonable or was particularly stressed by them.
Partly, I expect, because the payoff has been clear, so most people are prepared to accept the down side, especially temporarily.
"Relaxed" is a subjective term of course, if you're not relaxed then I can't dispute about that.

...FWIW my opinion is that cases will increase... a saw tooth effect which will carry on for some considerable time. So to conclude this will minimise economic loss is premature.

I expect we will see a few more clusters so a saw tooth is quite possible,
I think that the authorities believe they can be contained before they spread sufficiently to require that restrictions be reimposed.
That also seems quite possible to me, we will see, don't want to reach a premature conclusion.
But in either case I expect that our low infection rate and death rate will put us in a position to reopen more quickly and help affected businesses.
It's been the year from hell for the tourism and hospitality around here, first the bushfires and then Covid-19 just as they were about to reopen.

I cant remember which minister said this...he said the reason that Oz hasnt gone for an eradication policy is that it would mean a guaranteed lockdown for 18 months or more.

The minister's statement is surely incorrect.
In less than 2 months we have knocked the level down to close to zero.
One more month should do it.
That is also the assessment of a friend who is a senior health policy adviser, PhD in public health, knows epidemics.
So I trust her assessment more than some unnamed minister.
She's unhappy that they have eased up now, just as we are so close.
Personally, I see the conflict between cautious health decisions and the need to help people economically.
So I find myself in the rare position that I think our Aussie politicians have this about correct, for once.

Best wishes
David
 
Last edited:

March Audio

Master Contributor
Audio Company
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
6,378
Likes
9,321
Location
Albany Western Australia
Cases consistently down to a few % of the peak, less than 1% on the best days.
Active cases in continuous decline for well over a month.
Test ratios now exceed 10,000 tests to find 1 active case in most jurisdictions.
Canberra now has no active cases at all.
No deaths at all, anywhere in the country on most days recently.
Hospitals on standby with empty beds as a backup.
Still not eliminated but I find it hard to understand why you think "under control" is not correct and reasonable.
What criteria do you think still need to be met to use the phrase?

View attachment 62955



We haven't had a "lockdown", we have no curfews, always possible to leave the house for a run, or a walk to the shops for food and other items.
No one checks you in or out of your apartment block or precinct, as in China.
As you concede, less strict than other countries.
And as I already noted, I actually see more people on the streets than prior to the social distance rules.
I even asked some of these passers-by how they felt about it. (n~20).
No one I asked considered the restrictions unreasonable or was particularly stressed by them.
Partly, I expect, because the payoff has been clear, so most people are prepared to accept the down side, especially for a finite time.
"Relaxed" is a subjective term of course, if you're not relaxed then I can't dispute about that.



I expect we will see a few more clusters so a saw tooth is quite possible,
I think that the authorities believe they can be contained before they spread sufficiently to require that restrictions be reimposed.
That also seems quite possible to me, we will see, don't want to reach a premature conclusion.
But in either case I expect that our low infection rate and death rate will put us in a position to reopen more quickly and help affected businesses.
It's been the year from hell for the tourism and hospitality around here, first the bushfires and then Covid-19 just as they were about to reopen.



The minister's statement is surely incorrect.
In less than 2 months we have knocked the level down to close to zero.
One more month should do it.
That is also the assessment of a friend who is a senior health policy adviser, PhD in public health, knows epidemics.
So I trust her assessment more than some unnamed minister.
She's unhappy that they have eased up now, just as we are so close.
Personally, I see the conflict between cautious health decisions and the need to help people economically.
So I find myself in the rare position that I think our Aussie politicians have this about correct, for once.

Best wishes
David
The virus has not been eradicated. It is not controlled, we are controlled.

The experts fully expect flare ups as restrictions are reduced. If they thought it was controlled we could just go straight back to normal

Tests only account for people showing significant symptoms or difinitive suspicion of exposure. They don't account for asymptomatic carriers, or people with minimal symptoms who haven't been tested.

So terminology maybe, semantic maybe, but my point was that its not correct to beleive we have "control" over this. We have just changed our behaviour to help avoid spreading it. Forcibly I might add, so yes we have been locked down and freedoms removed. That's no comment on it being right or wrong, just that your interpretation is rather "generous" IMO.

As of yet we have no idea how long and what level of restrictions will be necessary.

Edit:
Just as expected:

https://amp.9news.com.au/article/b46a68a4-34c8-4efe-a92b-c0f3a1b0ebe1

New coronavirus infections are accelerating again in Germany just days after its leaders loosened social restrictions, raising concerns that the pandemic could once again slip out of control
 
Last edited:

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,454
Likes
15,809
Location
Oxfordshire
In less than 2 months we have knocked the level down to close to zero.
One more month should do it.
There seems little chance we will ever "do it" IMO, or not until we know a lot more than just infection rate.
It will be with us for the foreseeable future.
It is so contagious that we will need to take precautions to avoid accelerating infections, maybe indefinitely.
We don't know whether there will be an effective vaccine yet not least since we don't know whether infection brings immunity.
OTOH it is mainly old people who are dying, maybe they are the only ones to be affected long term.
 

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,846
Likes
9,601
Location
Europe
New coronavirus infections are accelerating again in Germany just days after its leaders loosened social restrictions, raising concerns that the pandemic could once again slip out of control
This outbreak is not caused by loosened restrictions. The true cause is that slaughterhouses employ cheap workforces from Eastern Europe and put them into overcrowded homes (several people staying in one room, many people sharing one bath, and so on). (EDIT: replace If if by Even when) Even when they knew how to behave properly they have no chance to practice social distancing.
 
Last edited:

MediumRare

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
1,959
Likes
2,287
Location
Chicago
This outbreak is not caused by loosened restrictions. The true cause is that slaughterhouses employ cheap workforces from Eastern Europe and put them into overcrowded homes (several people staying in one room, many people sharing one bath, and so on). If if they knew how to behave properly they have no chance to practice social distancing.
What about the slaughterhouse staff changed in the last 14 days? Otherwise, it would appear that loosened restrictions allowed a slaughterhouse employee to be infected, thus causing the outbreak.

Also, what leads you to use the "if" as in "if they knew..."? (Cf. Many meat processing outbreaks here in the US have nothing to do with home situations, rather the workers are not allowed to protect themselves on the production lines. Plenty of news reports document the cause and resulting protests.)
 

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,170
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
Today is the first day of phase 1 in Tarragona (Catalonia, Spain, EU). There are many people on the street, as if we were in 2019. Few people with a mask on the street, about 30%. In stores you see more but less than before.

There are some schedules but they are not respected.

Today I have not seen a police car patrolling the streets, circling, much less the siren calls.

I see a lot of uncovered noses, people touching their masks without later cleaning their hands with hydrogel, an element that should accompany us when leaving the house.

Many do not keep their distance.

Now I have no doubt that there will be continuous outbreaks in Spain, because of a large part of its citizens and the government for not forcing the use of mask unless just cause.

I knew it was going to happen but it hurts to confirm it.

If I were a Spanish health system worker I would be climbing the walls. :mad: :mad: :mad:
 

Willem

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,736
Likes
5,379
We have similar risks here with living conditions for immigrant workers in distribution centres for online retailers, but as yet no massive outbreaks that I know of.
 

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,846
Likes
9,601
Location
Europe
Also, what leads you to use the "if" as in "if they knew..."? (Cf. Many meat processing outbreaks here in the US have nothing to do with home situations, rather the workers are not allowed to protect themselves on the production lines. Plenty of news reports document the cause and resulting protests.)
Oops, typo and bad translation. Should have been "Even when" instead of "If if". In my language if and when are the same word. Fixed.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom