New Home = where to locate the speakers?

[thewas]

Despite many advocating only using DIRAC below 300-500Hz, such generalisations do not consider the state of the bottom end in one's room. For example if I was to EQ with DIRAC and cut as required to boost bass response while maintaining reasonable distortion I would end up with a 10dB rise at 300 or 500Hz and ridiculous tonality. Instead it's necesary to cut the whole range and only boost the worst bass response by 5dB locally.

In then end you up though with a similar dynamic range and max SPL whether you boost with up to 10dB or pull down the target by 5dB and boost with up to 5dB, what only matters is how much you will fill the lowest regions like dips.
Anyway filling room related dips should be always be done with upmost care as a nicely filled FR oftens sounds rather muddy, best is to try to minimise dips by placement variation and room treatment.
Here is also a relatively new article about how to anchor the low region correction in DIRAC:
https://www.soundstageaccess.com/in...-could-breathe-new-life-into-your-av-receiver

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

In then end you up though with a similar dynamic range and max SPL whether you boost with up to 10dB or pull down the target by 5dB and boost with up to 5dB, what only matters is how much you will fill the lowest regions like dips.
Anyway filling room related dips should be always be done with upmost care as a nicely filled FR oftens sounds rather muddy, best is to try to minimise dips by placement variation and room treatment.
Here is also a relatively new article about how to anchor the low region correction in DIRAC:
https://www.soundstageaccess.com/in...-could-breathe-new-life-into-your-av-receiver

Interesting read - thank you.

Everything matters and only somethings matter - the paradox of room correction.

I have indeed tried the method of limiting correction to a nominal frequency (500-1,000 Hz), and with some testing it generally sounds worse to my ears. I have a different reference to most people - I can listen to my system in free field conditions outside on my balcony. This gives me the baseline for the speakers true tonality and response.

All I try and do inside is manage the inherent room issues as best as possible to achieve something close to free field....


So below is the DIRAC single seat measurement result with my B&K target correction. As you can see one channel is way out of phase or sync because of asymmetry in the room. So I look at the lowest average (-8dB @ 30Hz) and add +5dB or so to that level, then apply the target curve accordingly. To do anything else will clearly result in audible rubbish - either distortion / over driving the woofers, or, a 10dB jump at the end of the correction window.

This is the same position, but measured with the wide lounge setting on DIRAC. Much better average of course, but same issues regarding partial correction.

Yes, a couple of subs are in the long term plan, as is some room treatment....or perhaps just moving! But I can't see another way to get a decent result with the system and room I currently have, other than full range correction.

 

[thewas]

If you don't like the tonality of your loudspeakers its totally ok to intervene in the upper region where you mainly correct the loudspeakers.
And yes, as I had written it is most of the time not good to fill bass dips fully, so in the case of DIRAC to pull down the target to their lowest level, so your choices seem to be fine.

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

If you don't like the tonality of your loudspeakers its totally ok to intervene in the upper region where you mainly correct the loudspeakers.
And yes, as I had written it is most of the time not good to fill bass dips fully, so in the case of DIRAC to pull down the target to their lowest level, so your choices seem to be fine.

I have been following some of your posts re muddy-ness from over EQ'ing the bass region.

What can you recommend as an approach? To balance lack of bass with destroying the midrange clarity?

 

[thewas]

I have been following some of your posts re muddy-ness from over EQ'ing the bass region.

What can you recommend as an approach? To balance lack of bass with destroying the midrange clarity?

Good question, like you have understood its a compromise, try boosting the bass widely, thus with low Q or shelf filters and not just room related dips.

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

Good question, like you have understood its a compromise, try boosting the bass widely, thus with low Q or shelf filters and not just room related dips.

So currently I have found DIRAC only is superior to the; create PEQ from REW MMM averaging of the LP's, then load onto SHD and measure with DIRAC. But I have not focused on what you mentioned - broad low shelf filters.

When finding the average with which to create the PEQ using MMM for each listening position, is it best to average equally across the three positions (Left, Center, Right)?

 

[thewas]

Would say depends on how you rate the importance of each position. Although I personally would rather just make the MMM region larger. Also in my room correcting L and R separately (stereo correction) till approximately 300 Hz works better, above and only if needed I prefer mono correction as we you correct there more the loudspeaker than the room.

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

Would say depends on how you rate the importance of each position. Although I personally would rather just make the MMM region larger. Also in my room correcting L and R separately (stereo correction) till approximately 300 Hz works better, above and only if needed I prefer mono correction as we you correct there more the loudspeaker than the room.

I have noticed that the wider setting on DIRAC tends to give a better result when listening in other parts of the apartment, and also subjectively seems to create a bit more space or openness. I would guess that cleaner reflections are produced with wider averaging....


Ok, to the next round of measurements and adjustments - What I think you are saying is by weighting the average of the center LP for left and right channels and then building PEQ filters for each, I should be able to do the heavy lifting via PEQ, and then when I run DIRAC there is less variance across the measured points.

For interest this is the room as seen by DIRAC;

I would guess the transition frequency is around 300-400Hz, so I will limit the PEQ accordingly (although in REW FR it looks like the room is part of the result right up to 900Hz. So what is the narrowest filter I can use without muddiness? Q=3? or less? And what works better for averaging, MMM must need lots of samples to average low frequencies well? Are REW sweeps better at DIRAC like spacings?

Out of interest I tried at low shelf type filter using DIRAC;

Which measured;

In summary left to right is hugely different under 300Hz mainly due to the asymmetry of the room and timing of reflections. I can only guess what phase is doing. But it seems like I can get some improvement with your approach. Based on the free field sound outside, inside will never be close ETC and decay wise, but maybe I can get the tonality and balance right for lower SPL levels......

The room is definitely adding some brightness, and some bass;

Fun to learn through trying different approaches anyway.

 

[thewas]

Looking good, by the way I also use the B&K target currently.

I would guess the transition frequency is around 300-400Hz, so I will limit the PEQ accordingly (although in REW FR it looks like the room is part of the result right up to 900Hz. So what is the narrowest filter I can use without muddiness? Q=3? or less?

In the end your ears must decide but I would also think Q till 2-3.

And what works better for averaging, MMM must need lots of samples to average low frequencies well? Are REW sweeps better at DIRAC like spacings?

RTA pink noise MMM is much faster (less than a minute total time) then doing several sweeps and gives very good results.

https://www.ohl.to/audio/downloads/MMM-moving-mic-measurement.pdf

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

Thanks @thewas .

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

Latest results - RTA MMM is dark blue - in my lounge room.

Outside v DAC only inside v DSP inside = DIRAC DSP really helps reduce the rooms brightness. First reflection is floor reflection in exactly the same damned place every time.

Nice group delay outside.....

And the spect looks like a nearfield monitor....in a nice studio......

 

[oursmagenta]

Latest results - RTA MMM is dark blue - in my lounge room.

View attachment 119045View attachment 119052View attachment 119047

Outside v DAC only inside v DSP inside = DIRAC DSP really helps reduce the rooms brightness. First reflection is floor reflection in exactly the same damned place every time.

View attachment 119058

Nice group delay outside.....

View attachment 119056

And the spect looks like a nearfield monitor....in a nice studio......

View attachment 119059

Amazing, I have 80m2 wood terrace in the making right now. I should put my listening room on my future terrace .
Very insightful thread BTW !

Do you experience better decay times with Dirac, in your inside setup off-course ?

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

Amazing, I have 80m2 wood terrace in the making right now. I should put my listening room on my future terrace .
Very insightful thread BTW !

Do you experience better decay times with Dirac, in your inside setup off-course ?

Absolutely re outdoor listening just watch out for reflections. And yes huge improvement with DIRAC to decay times and ETC.