Improving sound in high reflective room, help needed

[Miguelón]

You can run DiracLive in Software of your Computer. This limits you to the using the computer as the source for you music. For just testing it this is probably fine, for every day usage probably not for most of us. For this version you can get a free trial licenses. Otherwise you need a pre amplifier, amplifier, AVR or one of the miniDSP products supporting DiracLive. On https://homeaudio.jimdofree.com/dirac-live/ I am maintaining a list of the more "affordable" options.

Thanks, good to know!

Probably because I don’t use the PC so much a good option is streamer => miniDSP => sub => main speakers for commodity.

But now the subwoofer took so much money for this year !

 

[Miguelón]

He likes his Genelecs (which are excellent) so he won't be changing speakers.

I tried also Neumann KH 120 ii which had a slightly better response but not a game changer: still the modes and the right speaker mess were present. Subjectively preferred the Genelecs, for any reason.

Thanks for the suggestion, near field listening is way better at home, fortunately I can move easily the whole setup to the position mentioned before:

Circle with L is my best position I could find for analytical listening, red dots are speakers and sub, distance aprox. 1.5 meters to monitors line and TV. For operas and music videos I find superb but my living room is reduced to a half.

Is difficult in my budget to find speakers as good as Neumanns or Genelec, I think we have a big chance today accessing to well made monitors. Passive speakers and amp on that range usually go to double the price (I consider Kef LS50 wireless but is quite expensive and not sure the results would be better).

 

[krabapple]

If that placement is very much better, it suggests problems may be coming from either the wall next to the left speaker, or the front wall behind the speakers, or both. Treating them might help.

I'm not sure from the sketch if either of your placements is really 'near field', but might be close. And having the TV between the speakers could affect 'depth', unless it's raised well above ear level (which is bad screen positioning for viewing)

 

[Jaxjax]

Thanks, effectively I’m running on limited budget

Biggest issue is the two modes that resonate more time than other sounds, mainly 70 and 140 Hz but cannot trust accurately because I used a older mic that was not made to calibration, and the iphone mic: more or less coincide on the main lower end modes frequencies but not on the decibels.

I will purchase a Umik 1 as soon as I have my subwoofer (Genelec 7050 ordered). When rolling off on 85 Hz left and right channels on WiiM Ultra (just by activating sub output automatically applies the roll off filter) things improve a lot, leaving just one mode at 140-150 Hz and the messy reflections on the right speaker.

Thanks for the suggestion about Dirac live, but I find some fun on hand made corrections, so for instance I think that should go with REW and UMIK 1 or Behringer.

I have the impression, maybe just my imagination that a lot of EQ give some unrealistic feeling or is just WiiM auto correction is very inaccurate. I can tolerate imperfections and some resonances, that make part of what happens when I play my piano but don’t like when prolongated “hummmms” invade the room and disturb mids and highs.

Eventually I correct another 3d mode that appears at 310-330 Hz, I suppose is a mode and not a reflection because this prolongation sound and appears both in left and right speakers, or if I place one just at the middle of the room.

I had a Genelec F Two some days for trial and another very little 42 Hz mode appeared, but was easy to correct.

I will try to fill the bookshelves by toys and some gym light material to help diffusing sound from the right, yesterday au discovered that also placing a chair on the corner attenuated low end (unfortunately not adding clarity, just dumping the lows)

Post edited: nice to read REW simulator on rooms acoustics, I enjoy learning a little of that field when trying to improve my music experience, that makes part of the fun! A reason to avoid automatic software for instance, I can live with imperfections but I can’t live without knowing where and why they appear.

I would try the Dirac free 14 day trial at 400 down or so . My room is as bad as yours & Dirac live 3 @ 400 down or so really does help me have a good time. You can tilt the top end if you are offended by certain music, Like a tone control instead of surgical which seems to be in line with Toole. Your speakers spin measure much better then mine do . My left speaker is also jambed into a corner.

 

[Miguelón]

If that placement is very much better, it suggests problems may be coming from either the wall next to the left speaker, or the front wall behind the speakers, or both. Treating them might help.

I'm not sure from the sketch if either of your placements is really 'near field', but might be close. And having the TV between the speakers could affect 'depth', unless it's raised well above ear level (which is bad screen positioning for viewing)

TV is an option, just for some videos or opera: sometimes humans love watching things apart from listening them

But yes, in the original placement is also bad, because the right speaker has reflected spikes on highs, bouncing off the screen to the sofa. If I can make a comment about politics, “right” is a problem in my house almost as much as in my region…

To very good listening I push it back to rear wall: were the windows and glass door are. Glass and screen, should not add anything worse to that side.

When I opened the thread, in the picture my listening distance from sofa is about 3.5 meters, and 1.5 meters in the second.

Post edited: I forgot to mention that very often I’m not on my studying chair, but at front wall on the sofa (colored in blue). Because of axis and way far from the listening optimal triangle, I also use mono reproduction to ambient music with one single speaker placed at the center. I’m not so soundstage dependent and when things are problematic one well placed speaker is better than stereo bad placement to my ears.

 

[Miguelón]

I would try the Dirac free 14 day trial at 400 down or so . My room is as bad as yours & Dirac live 3 @ 400 down or so really does help me have a good time. You can tilt the top end if you are offended by certain music, Like a tone control instead of surgical which seems to be in line with Toole. Your speakers spin measure much better then mine do . My left speaker is also jambed into a corner.
View attachment 429811

The corner is not a huge problem in my room, is more the messy reflections between the right speakers, the column at its right and front (little yellow square) and the bookshelves, and the TV screen (in green). I’m talking about usual configuration in my room…

Pressure to use Dirac is increasing, I didn’t know can be so helpful in problematic rooms… next step will be a DSP for sure!

I will try the free version as soon as I purchase a calibration mic…

Is better to use a XLR mic and my audio interface or UMIK 1 usb to PC is ok?

 

[Miguelón]

And/or, listen in the near field with speakers toed in

He likes his Genelecs (which are excellent) so he won't be changing speakers.





Smart/informed audiophiles don't use 'foam panels', they rockwool that is 4" or more in thickness.

BTW, I have also 8020D in another room at desktop, and placed in the conflictive point have better response on mids am highs than 8030, perhaps because narrower directivity as @Duke suggested.

Another solution can be using 8020D in the living room with a sub, and 8030C at desktop?

 

[Miguelón]

This is just my opinion...

If feasible, I would look for narrow-pattern speakers whose off-axis response closely matches their listening-axis response.

"Narrow pattern" so that the direct-to-reverberant sound ratio remains fairly high even though the room is highly reflective.

"Off-axis response closely matches their listening-axis response" so that the in-room reflections do not degrade the sound quality. An unamplified acoustic guitar probably sounds great in your room because the reflections are spectrally correct. Imo that same principle can apply to loudspeakers.

Regarding room treatment, my instinct is to rely more on diffusion than on absorption, unless you can use truly broadband absorption. Here's why: Foam panels which are not thick enough to be truly broad band attenuate the short wavelengths far morso than the longer ones, so they degrade the spectral balance of the reflections. The ear/brain system looks at the overtone structure to correctly identify reflections as such. If too much of the overtones are removed, the reflections cease to be recognizable as "signal" and become "noise".

I’ve just verified that Genelec 8020D FQ in my room is more even that one of 8030C, and saw at spinorama that dispersion is narrower (wave guide smaller).

Very happy with that, mid end between 200 and 600 Hz in 8030C was completely congested and difficult to correct, and in lows I need less equalization too.

8020D were on my study room, surprised to listen how good sounds on my living room over floor stands

And the subwoofer that goes with it is cheaper than 7050: the music I listen doesn’t need to go so low.

Thanks for your suggestion, my 8030C will go to my desk at the computer. Seems a little nonsense, but measurements and ear are agree

 

[Miguelón]

After some reflexions we currently think about installing our Genelec 8020D in the living room, and possibly sell the excellent pair of 8030C to buy a subwoofer.

Here’s the graphics of both speakers, apparently the narrower directivity of 8020D gives more even response on the mid range and because main room mode is just on the low end of both speakers, the higher bass response of 8030C doesn’t improve so much the sub bass.

Suggestions about if we are in the good direction if going 8020D + 7040 instead of 8030C?

This is the 8020D response from listening position:

And the 8030C ones:

Measurements are in white curve

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

I don't want to say that you should ignore the frequency domain, but be aware, that the time domain usually impacts sound quality even more (as you have noticed already by moving closer to the speakers). REW has great time domain tools.
It was already mentioned that a second sub can also be beneficial to bring the decay time down.
Automatic systems usually just pay attention to one parameter they a maximizing, but they ignore the decay and the effect the sub can have on it, when setting time & phase (for example to maximize flatness at crossover).
They cannot make the decision for you, what in your situation makes the better sounding setup.

 

[Miguelón]

I don't want to say that you should ignore the frequency domain, but be aware, that the time domain usually impacts sound quality even more (as you have noticed already by moving closer to the speakers). REW has great time domain tools.

It was already mentioned that a second sub can also be beneficial to bring the decay time down.
Automatic systems usually just pay attention to one parameter they a maximizing, but they ignore the decay and the effect the sub can have on it, when setting time & phase (for example to maximize flatness at crossover).
They cannot make the decision for you, what in your situation makes the better sounding setup.

Thanks, we should make more carefully measurements, I’m pretty sure that is something trivial there. With the roll off filter the issue disappears, so the WiiM is ignoring some frequency over 50-85 Hz, poor calculating Q factor or something else.

8030C is a good speaker, the little ones fits less “hummy” in the room but have a box-like sounding that cannot be changed by any tweaking, 4 inches have limits…

I’m a little bit lazy with the computer, but is time to get a proper mic (was using the iphone one) and get the Mac out of its case…

Thanks for advices, is the 5th or 6th that mentioned that the problem can be better solved by software and analysis than by hardware changes (speakers or bass traps), so should go on that way.

Waterfall surely will show the guilty freq. and time or amplitude correction.

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

Thanks, we should make more carefully measurements, I’m pretty sure that is something trivial there. With the roll off filter the issue disappears, so the WiiM is ignoring some frequency over 50-85 Hz, poor calculating Q factor or something else.

8030C is a good speaker, the little ones fits less “hummy” in the room but have a box-like sounding that cannot be changed by any tweaking, 4 inches have limits…

I’m a little bit lazy with the computer, but is time to get a proper mic (was using the iphone one) and get the Mac out of its case…

Thanks for advices, is the 5th or 6th that mentioned that the problem can be better solved by software and analysis than by hardware changes (speakers or bass traps), so should go on that way.

Waterfall surely will show the guilty freq. and time or amplitude correction.

Yes, waterfall gives a good overview, spectrogram already a bit more insight.
But other displays are also very useful. For example "decay" with the time slices (the 50-80 ms timewindow I found very helpful to visualize boominess and its behaviour as a time domain effect).
And "RT60 Decay" is also amazing: I loved it for visualizing low frequency over time problems.
Say if you have a modal bass problem, looking at RT60 decay can help understanding, how specifically that mode builds up over time and, for example, what it does to repetetive short sounds, like the tail of kicks - then EQing that mode away on/off, and having the visualization, helped me to identify by ear the late buildup.

IMO only if we can identify a specific problem by ear, we can rank its importance in our indivual acoustic situation, and then make an informed decision, if it should be prioritized over other aspects, or if other aspects are more important.

 

[Miguelón]

IMO only if we can identify a specific problem by ear, we can rank its importance in our indivual acoustic situation, and then make an informed decision, if it should be prioritized over other aspects, or if other aspects are more important.

Is the case, I partially fixed this morning by taking measurements in zones it resonates the most.

Was just in the narrow boundary between 8020D and 8030C roll off, and some measurements suggested lower Q factor to cover the mode without moving the central frequency.

Once better identified if it is amplified by my right corner (high probably), I will put some bass traps to reduce EQ. Also when I get the sub, logically will go to the left side, away from the zone of conflict.

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

In our studio the sub(s) are installed @LR, but at home I did it all myself and had never questioned the usual recommendations of placement, that it doesn't matter where its placed, because of the usual theories. Somehow it never felt really tight and "right".
When I bought a new sub for home, more out of curiosity, I also placed it at the center and that was a very big surprise. It sounded slightly but felt(!) way better: more direct, snappier, punchier, better cohesion. Even the imaging, at the same crossover @80, was significantly improved.
To my big surprise later, the frequency response measurement looked much worse, than the optimized prior placement in the corner.

Long story short: keep your approach using your ears. Do not decide because of a plausible theory without checking by ear. Do not exclude a center/symmetrical placement a priori.

Something to prepare before it arrives, if the sub is a heavy one: if you place it right out of the box on a suitable plastic bag or cardboard, it is easier to move around for testing.

 

[Miguelón]

In our studio the sub(s) are installed @LR, but at home I did it all myself and had never questioned the usual recommendations of placement, that it doesn't matter where its placed, because of the usual theories. Somehow it never felt really tight and "right".
When I bought a new sub for home, more out of curiosity, I also placed it at the center and that was a very big surprise. It sounded slightly but felt(!) way better: more direct, snappier, punchier, better cohesion. Even the imaging, at the same crossover @80, was significantly improved.
To my big surprise later, the frequency response measurement looked much worse, than the optimized prior placement in the corner.

Long story short: keep your approach using your ears. Do not decide because of a plausible theory without checking by ear. Do not exclude a center/symmetrical placement a priori.

Something to prepare before it arrives, if the sub is a heavy one: if you place it right out of the box on a suitable plastic bag or cardboard, it is easier to move around for testing.

Thanks, so practical recommendations!

I had another sub but was not so happy with it, and returned, the Genelec F Two, too expensive for what it is.

WiiM has a dedicated ouput for the sub, with a measuring tool for the delay, I didn’t felt the difference but I let the calculated timing because was inoffensive…

Also has phase 0 and 180 phase adjustment, the one I will buy (7050 also from Genelec) has 0, 90, 180, 270 degrees. Should be better use the path:

WiiM => 7050 LR => 8030C

Which is the proposed by Genelec or:

WiiM => 7050 LE
WiiM => 8030C?

WiiM Ultra has also the possibility of adjusting crossover frequency, but apparently Genelec optimized their gear at 85 Hz crossover.

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

Thanks, so practical recommendations!

I had another sub but was not so happy with it, and returned, the Genelec F Two, too expensive for what it is.

WiiM has a dedicated ouput for the sub, with a measuring tool for the delay, I didn’t felt the difference but I let the calculated timing because was inoffensive…

Also has phase 0 and 180 phase adjustment, the one I will buy (7050 also from Genelec) has 0, 90, 180, 270 degrees. Should be better use the path:

WiiM => 7050 LR => 8030C

Which is the proposed by Genelec or:

WiiM => 7050 LE
WiiM => 8030C?

WiiM Ultra has also the possibility of adjusting crossover frequency, but apparently Genelec optimized their gear at 85 Hz crossover.

Sorry, no installation experience with Gennies. Maybe open another thread about your specific Genelec speaker questions, this thread is more about the acoustic side. The Gearslutz forum should also have experienced ppl with knowledge about Genelecs.

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

As a good Genelec customer, have you asked their support, if they have some helpful guides for a DIY holistic (placement, DSP, treatment) approach?

 

[Miguelón]

As a good Genelec customer, have you asked their support, if they have some helpful guides for a DIY holistic (placement, DSP, treatment) approach?

Not for instance, I’ve seen some videos here to measure bass response from different locations, and phase adjustment.

The question of how type of connection should use was answered today, when connecting balanced from a external DAC the bass response has improved a lot. Maybe the “hummmms” were to do with ground loops or interferences, but I’m aware that my WiiM is broken: all electronics work ok, but RCA output really sucks. Not possible with the 115 dB SINAD measured by Amir, I will contact the dealer.