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New Home = where to locate the speakers?

Coach_Kaarlo

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Thanks for reading this - I hope some experienced members can help me.

Yes, I love the journey of measuring, listening, changing, and repeating again. However I have just spent 3 months tuning the speaker location and DSP/ DIRAC in my old apartment only to be moving to a new one! First world problems etc.

I have some knowledge of the fundamentals of room mode theory, and have also learnt quite a lot through measuring and listening in my old apartment. My first attempt / guess is to place the speakers system in the locations sketched below.

IMG_8548.jpg
living_room.jpg


Yellow sketch and red sketch are in the living room shown above. The blue sketch is in the office / spare bedroom (not shown) which also has a timber underlay floor and large full height windows. Architecturally nice - acoustically not so great.

My thoughts are to setup in the office/ spare bedroom (blue sketch) as aesthetically acceptable and functional room treatments are easier and smaller to implement. Things like floor coverings, heavy curtains, corner bass traps etc.

HOWEVER, my partner enjoys music and prefers having the speakers setup in the living room (as they were in the previous apartment). The living room options seem limited (yellow is practical) but I think red would have the better acoustics.


My system;

Digital media (Tidal etc) streamed into miniDSP SHD Studio (DIRAC 3.0) digital into Benchmark Media DAC2-HGC.
With two Benchmark Media AHB2's in mono driving a pair of Yamaha NS-2000 speakers, which have very very good off axis directivity according to my measurements.

So where to start? DIRAC can manage impulse and cutting peaks quite well in my experience, so my thinking is I that the best approach is to position the speakers to minimise the room mode nulls (20-200Hz?). And equally it seems because the speakers are so good off axis, I need to be careful about the wall bounce. I run the speakers flat with almost no toe-in which produces over the shoulder imaging and a wall of sound in front rather than a small centered sound stage.

Priorities for speaker locations seem to be;
  1. direct sound
  2. first reflected sound (wall bounce)
  3. floor bounce
  4. rear wall reflections

Thoughts, suggestions?
 
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Coach_Kaarlo

Coach_Kaarlo

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Wow! That red highlighting must have some thump and bOOm. Is that Sydney? It looks like Toronto. :D

Yeah, red not quite to scale perhaps - speakers would need to be further into the room.

Sydney for the win!
 

RayDunzl

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Red.

If it doesn't work, try another.

1597674093069.png
 

Hipper

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That glazing looks a real asset so I wouldn't like to do anything that spoils the view. 'Red' therefore, is out.

I would think yellow is, as you say, the most practical and I wouldn't have thought it would be acoustically any worse then red.

As you can't employ room treatment in such a room, you will have to rely only on DSP/EQ for both red and yellow, plus perhaps a bit of speaker and chair movement, to get the sound right.

I therefore suggest yellow. If the left speaker of yellow causes some acoustic problems (reflections) you could get a (perhaps decorative) absorbent panel on feet so it can be moved aside when not in use.

Anyway, you could be moving again in three months time!
 

Duke

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I really like Red, which geometrically precludes significant early sidewall bounces. Good thinking! I've been involved in several custom studio projects wherein the side walls of the control room were angled sort of like that. Red is also more "rest of the house friendly", if that matters.
 

Thomas savage

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Well bass might be good given the glass , good as in not boundary limited. Speaker placement is try , try and try again.

The rest I would suggest some wave guides or extreme toe in and some absorption on the ceiling.

After that, crack beer and don't worry about it .
 

MarsianC#

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My money is on Red. Almost RFZ. Obvious choice of speakers are JBL4350/4355. [lol]
Get a rollable OLED and you won't have to worry about the view. Or don't even buy a TV :)
 

Duke

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Not that this is really the topic of this thread, but Coach mentioned the floor bounce.

My opinion is that the floor-bounce and ceiling-bounce arrive close enough in time to fill in one another's notches somewhat. Their notches are typically an octave or so apart, so they are not "on top of" one another.

If you talk with someone outside on the sidewalk, their voice sounds thinner than it does indoors. I think part of this is because the sidewalk-bounce notch isn't being filled in.

So I'm not saying to ignore the floor and ceiling bounces, but rather that the combination may not be as bad as either one alone. And if you're going to diminish one then you might want to diminish the other as well.
 

Wes

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glass will send shattering treble glare into your brain

you -may- be able to use fake fig plants, etc. to reduce that
 

Martin

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Beautiful place - great view! Red looks interesting but I vote for Yellow. With heavy curtains on the the adjacent and rear glass it should sound pretty good, too.

Martin
 

RayDunzl

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You got a place with a view.

Why sit in a cave just to listen to some tunes?

As for "blocking the view", you already have a concrete wall doing a good job of that..
 

preload

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I bet red will sound great. You can reduce some of the reflections from all that glazing by covering it up with large egg crate foam panels.
 
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Coach_Kaarlo

Coach_Kaarlo

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So far, many great points - thanks!


I like red, with thick curtain I think it would work pretty well?

Good for night time or private time - but the curtain for listening does reduce the views red gives - sitting in the lounge with a glass of single malt etc.


That glazing looks a real asset so I wouldn't like to do anything that spoils the view. 'Red' therefore, is out.

I would think yellow is, as you say, the most practical and I wouldn't have thought it would be acoustically any worse then red.

As you can't employ room treatment in such a room, you will have to rely only on DSP/EQ for both red and yellow, plus perhaps a bit of speaker and chair movement, to get the sound right.

I therefore suggest yellow. If the left speaker of yellow causes some acoustic problems (reflections) you could get a (perhaps decorative) absorbent panel on feet so it can be moved aside when not in use.

Anyway, you could be moving again in three months time!

Don't even joke about the moving thing! But yes downside of red is a screen right in front of the beautiful curved glass. Was interested in your moveable panel idea as a couple of those might allow for some LP tuning, and be stored discreetly when not in use. And screen etc are against the wall so less visual annoyance.


I really like Red, which geometrically precludes significant early sidewall bounces. Good thinking! I've been involved in several custom studio projects wherein the side walls of the control room were angled sort of like that. Red is also more "rest of the house friendly", if that matters.

Not that this is really the topic of this thread, but Coach mentioned the floor bounce.

My opinion is that the floor-bounce and ceiling-bounce arrive close enough in time to fill in one another's notches somewhat. Their notches are typically an octave or so apart, so they are not "on top of" one another.

If you talk with someone outside on the sidewalk, their voice sounds thinner than it does indoors. I think part of this is because the sidewalk-bounce notch isn't being filled in.

So I'm not saying to ignore the floor and ceiling bounces, but rather that the combination may not be as bad as either one alone. And if you're going to diminish one then you might want to diminish the other as well.

I am going to measure / listen to red for sure because I expect the sound in the rest of the apartment will be reasonable - fairly direct path to most rooms / spaces. I'm also curious about the divergent side walls and how they would sound. The floor ceiling bounce timing you mentioned should be measurable? Big difference in the distance so timing should be quite different - what about the reflected angle - same as approach angle right? So should be able to find a spot in the middle for the lounge /LP.


Well bass might be good given the glass , good as in not boundary limited. Speaker placement is try , try and try again.

The rest I would suggest some wave guides or extreme toe in and some absorption on the ceiling.

After that, crack beer and don't worry about it .

So bass will not have as much corner effect = not boundary limited? Wave guides - for the speakers you mean? (sorry for the ignorance). And great idea for ceiling absorption, already a lighting rail to attach too, and visually very discrete. Diffusion is probably less effective than absorption in such a bright room right?


My money is on Red. Almost RFZ. Obvious choice of speakers are JBL4350/4355. [lol]
Get a rollable OLED and you won't have to worry about the view. Or don't even buy a TV :)

Thinking of having the tv drop down behind the cabinet I have the components in, but I like the justification of having to buy an rollable OLED.


glass will send shattering treble glare into your brain

you -may- be able to use fake fig plants, etc. to reduce that

Have some real plants, succulents, which are reasonable at diffusion. But the treble concerns me - already have the speaker HF tone control at -3dB. Bloody beryllium tweeters.


Beautiful place - great view! Red looks interesting but I vote for Yellow. With heavy curtains on the the adjacent and rear glass it should sound pretty good, too.

Martin

Thanks! Rear wall off angle was making me worry but the room is large so the reflected sound less important to the rear right, plus curtains help? The only other issue I notice is the different distances to yellow side walls - but the mode differences will probably mean I can straddle them somewhere close to where the LP is shown.....or the curtain on the close side wall will offer some absorption?


You got a place with a view.

Why sit in a cave just to listen to some tunes?

As for "blocking the view", you already have a concrete wall doing a good job of that..

You make interesting points - where I am currently has a private rooftop - have enjoyed some very good sound with the speakers in open space angled up slightly, while sitting them a foot or so off the ground. But I guess the cave is dry and warm, something which keeps me happy through keeping her happy. The view is the challenge, and to be honest, red is ticking that box. At the end of the day, measurements will guide, but at 50kg each the speakers are annoying to move. Yep first world problems.....
 
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Coach_Kaarlo

Coach_Kaarlo

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I bet red will sound great. You can reduce some of the reflections from all that glazing by covering it up with large egg crate foam panels.

Hahahahahaha - gold! Or try stuffing foam in my ears until it sounds better?? Sound advice ;)
 

preload

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Hahahahahaha - gold! Or try stuffing foam in my ears until it sounds better?? Sound advice ;)

Now don't tell me you didn't already consider it. :)
On a more serious note, perhaps you could consider a curtain that can extend the whole way around? Or roman shades on each glass panel? That way you could have the best of both worlds.
 
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