Room Acoustics Advice Needed for My Audio System in Vietnam

[longts]

First, I want to thank everyone here for all the helpful information. This is my current system:

• Streamer: Wiim Pro Plus
• DAC: SMSL D6S (Ugreen Optical Cable, 1m)
• Amplifiers: 2x Fosi V3 Mono (Ugreen XLR Cable, 1m, Two separate power supplies 48V 5A)
• Speakers: KEF R3 Non-Meta (Micca Speaker Cable)

The position of the speakers is as shown in the attached photo:

• Speaker distance: 2m
• Distance from speaker to listening position: 2.9m
• Distance from back of speaker to back wall: 35cm
• Toe-in degree: 10 degrees
• Distance from left speaker to sidewall (glass windows): 1.6m

I hope to receive your feedback on how to improve my modest audio system.
I'm considering adding acoustic treatments to my room:

1. Two bass traps (600x600mm) right behind the speakers. These bass traps are made of high-density mineral wool (100kg/m³) with a thickness of 10cm.
2. Three acoustic panels (Sound absorber) (600x1200x50mm, rockwood, covered with Fabric are behind my listening position (behind the sofa), replacing the pictures currently hanging there.

This is my living room in an apartment, so I can't install too many acoustic treatments. I cannot mount acoustic panels on the ceiling, and I can't use a rug on the floor in front of the speakers because it's not suitable for the weather in Vietnam. The attached image only shows the living room portion of my space, which is connected to the kitchen and hallway.
I've tried using the WiiM room correction with the settings attached, but the results were quite poor. The bass feels very boomy and heavy rather than smooth. The sound feels more pleasant when I stand in the hallway next to the speakers. Now I'm using the PEQ from Spinorama, I feel it's better than the Wiim room correction.
I'm planning to add a small subwoofer because I want to hear bass down to 30Hz. I primarily listen to Jazz, Pop, and vocal music.

Thank you!

 

[Snoopy]

Headphones

 

[boxerfan88]

Your sofa is up against the backwall, you’ll get bass buildup there.

If it’s me, I’ll place a chair just in front of the sofa and make that my magic listening position. That should get you to almost equilateral triangle 2m-2m-2m.

Then toe-in the speakers such as the apex is about a foot behind the head at the new magic listening position.

Finally, EQ away any huge room peak (do not boost any null) upto 200Hz. I would not EQ above 200Hz unless it’s a preference thing, or something unique in the room I wanna deal with.

If you don’t already have, buy the UMIK and learn the REW tool. It’ll really help you dial in your system.

 

[Bjorn]

Use a chair closer to the speakers when you're listening.

FIY: A 10 cm absorbent isn't a bass trap. It works primarily well down to 400-250 Hz area, depending on how it's designed

 

[ZolaIII]

1 m from side walls for mains, about 2.5 m between them. Sofa to the window portal and 1 m from it, heavy curtains on the glass, and about 3 m to listening spot. Main problem is TV tho long trow laser projector and foldable canvas could be a solution for that (sort of and with curtains would work even doing the day). Corner side wall is place for sub and standard 80 Hz crossover, port's plugged on R3. Sorry no other way around and I will disregard headphones joke or take it very seriously if you can't afford to go as I drown.

 

[Bjorn]

If you can't add treatment to the ceiling between the speakers and listening position and not use a carpet, I would recommend a speaker that minimizes vertical reflections a lot more than today's present speakers.

 

[DanielT]

If you can't add treatment to the ceiling between the speakers and listening position and not use a carpet, I would recommend a speaker that minimizes vertical reflections a lot more than today's present speakers.

What would really minimize vertical reflections are line speakers that go from floor to ceiling. But that's a pretty extreme solution/speaker and most likely requires DIY. Plus if TS wants to tinker with EQ suitable for line speakers. Relatively short listening distance and line speakers are usually not the best mix either. It's not super short, but still. Maybe too complicated a project, but theoretically, line speakers are great for reducing floor and ceiling reflections.

There are speakers that are built to minimize reflections though. Snell type 1, built to reduce floor reflections for example:


Now I'm just throwing these out there, Larsen speakers, I don't know if they exist in Vietnam, but do you think such could be a sensible solution for TS's room with his conditions?


Edit
But maybe I brought up a little too odd and unusual speakers.It should be easier to find good speakers that have a controlled narrow dispersion via horns/waveguides to thus approach your recommendation of...speaker that minimizes vertical reflections a lot more than today's present speakers.
_______

View attachment 440369
1 m from side walls for mains, about 2.5 m between them. Sofa to the window portal and 1 m from it, heavy curtains on the glass, and about 3 m to listening spot. Main problem is TV tho long trow laser projector and foldable canvas could be a solution for that (sort of and with curtains would work even doing the day). Corner side wall is place for sub and standard 80 Hz crossover, port's plugged on R3. Sorry no other way around and I will disregard headphones joke or take it very seriously if you can't afford to go as I drown.

Heavy curtains at TS's large windows sound like a sensible idea.

 

[Bjorn]

What would really minimize vertical reflections are line speakers that go from floor to ceiling. But that's a pretty extreme solution/speaker and most likely requires DIY. Plus if TS wants to tinker with EQ suitable for line speakers. Relatively short listening distance and line speakers are usually not the best mix either. It's not super short, but still. Maybe too complicated a project, but theoretically, line speakers are great for reducing floor and ceiling reflections.

There are speakers that are built to minimize reflections though. Snell type 1, built to reduce floor reflections for example:
View attachment 440382View attachment 440384

Now I'm just throwing these out there, Larsen speakers, I don't know if they exist in Vietnam, but do you think such could be a sensible solution for TS's room with his conditions?
View attachment 440378View attachment 440379

Edit
But maybe I brought up a little too odd and unusual speakers.It should be easier to find good speakers that have a controlled narrow dispersion via horns/waveguides to thus approach your recommendation of...speaker that minimizes vertical reflections a lot more than today's present speakers.
_______


Heavy curtains at TS's large windows sound like a sensible idea.

The Larsen speaker actually creates more ceiling reflections with an upfiring treble. A line array like the CBT would work. The Vera Audio Coherence 12 avoids vertical reflections in the most sensitive area and works very well without any carpet and ceiling treatment. A planar speaker would avoid most reflections in the vertical plane, but would normalyy imply a dipole that sends the energy towards to the front wall and not the best dynamic capabilitites.

 

[DanielT]

The Larsen speaker actually creates more ceiling reflections with an upfiring treble. A line array like the CBT would work. The Vera Audio Coherence 12 avoids vertical reflections in the most sensitive area and works very well without any carpet and ceiling treatment. A planar speaker would avoid most reflections in the vertical plane, but would normalyy imply a dipole that sends the energy towards to the front wall and not the best dynamic capabilitites.

You're right. I was wondering if the Larsen (R.I.P) speakers would help reduce floor reflections given its construction. I missed that the tweeter is directed towards the ceiling. I thought (remembered wrong) that the tweeter was directed straight towards the listener, but I was wrong there.

Your Vera Audio Coherence 12 seems really good. Maybe a bit difficult or expensive to send them to Vietnam though, that even if TS would think they would fit his wallet and be suitable to be placed in his or their home. But you never know. More odd things have been skipped around our world.

I'm trying to think of speakers that Amir or Erin tested that showed good test results which also has narrow vertical dispersion. Some well-known brand that might be able to be found in Vietnam but I don't see any candidates in front of me.

The easiest thing, if TS wants and feels like it, is if he suggests available speakers on the Hifi market in Vietman so we can give our opinion on whether we think they would be suitable given his reflection challenges. That is of course assuming that TS is interested in changing his speakers. I don't know anything about that.

 

[longts]

Thanks everyone for the great advice! I appreciate all your help. @boxerfan88 @DanielT @ZolaIII @Bjorn
Unfortunately, my living room layout can't be changed, so I cannot rearrange the furniture or reposition the speakers. However, I will install heavy curtains for the windows. Hopefully, we will get a bigger house shortly, and I will arrange a mancave for myself )
But, Would adding two absorption panels (600x600x50mm) behind the speakers, plus three panels (600x1200x50mm) behind the sofa (replacing the current pictures), make a noticeable difference?

 

[ZolaIII]

Thanks everyone for the great advice! I appreciate all your help. @boxerfan88 @DanielT @ZolaIII @Bjorn
Unfortunately, my living room layout can't be changed, so I cannot rearrange the furniture or reposition the speakers. However, I will install heavy curtains for the windows. Hopefully, we will get a bigger house shortly, and I will arrange a mancave for myself )
But, Would adding two absorption panels (600x600x50mm) behind the speakers, plus three panels (600x1200x50mm) behind the sofa (replacing the current pictures), make a noticeable difference?

Your biggest problem as it is is that sofa is so close to the back wall. Nothing will resolve issue you have because of that. If you at least move it a bit out and put some diffusion panels behind it might.
You have unique opportunity to see and hear how it sounds with good ratio of back to front refractions along with nice bass reenactment from the walls with sub put where (and how) I told you. You don't really lose on space usability (other than TV). You won't get such chance even when you move to "better", bigger apartment (as modern design sucks).

 

[DanielT]

Thanks everyone for the great advice! I appreciate all your help. @boxerfan88 @DanielT @ZolaIII @Bjorn
Unfortunately, my living room layout can't be changed, so I cannot rearrange the furniture or reposition the speakers. However, I will install heavy curtains for the windows. Hopefully, we will get a bigger house shortly, and I will arrange a mancave for myself )
But, Would adding two absorption panels (600x600x50mm) behind the speakers, plus three panels (600x1200x50mm) behind the sofa (replacing the current pictures), make a noticeable difference?

Then it's more or less solved for you now. No idea to spend a lot of energy on acoustics fixing if you're going to move in the near future.

Look at the positive side of it all, if you get your mancave in the new house you'll have a completely empty room to start with. Then you hopefully can, before you furnish it, set up diffusers and absorbers. Or you can solve it by loading enough furniture into that room. Or a combination of furniture/diffuser/absorbents.

Here's a thread for inspiration:

Wood acoustic diffusers have become a decorative item - loved the idea!

Hi As an acoustician I am tired to tell people not to think room treatment only as absorption. In most small rooms absorption often creates more issues than it solves. Diffusion is a better solution. However, all I hear: they are expensive, ugly and difficult to place in a room. I am hence...

audiosciencereview.com

Plus you can choose speakers that can fit into your mancave. If you can't build it yourself, it might not cost that much in Vietnam to hire carpenters to fix a couple of line speakers for you. If such would line speakers fit in the new listening room? Or, well, ...I don't know what your new listening room looks like and and therefore suitable speakers for it.Feel free to come back with more information about that.In addition, your KEF R3 Non-Meta may very well fit well in your mancave, so then you don't need new speakers.

Good luck with the purchase of the new house and moving there!

Edit:
Speaking of different speaker design principles, one of ASR's most active DIY speaker builders @ppataki went from building line speakers to point source speakers to broadband/coax speakers. So line speakers are suitable for some, really good even but for others not so much. But you don't know until you try. You can guess but you can't know.

 

[boxerfan88]

Thanks everyone for the great advice! I appreciate all your help. @boxerfan88 @DanielT @ZolaIII @Bjorn
Unfortunately, my living room layout can't be changed, so I cannot rearrange the furniture or reposition the speakers.

Allow me to propose an alternative … the workaround I was suggesting can be accomplished by placing a temporary chair in front of the sofa. That temporary chair can be your critical listening seat to enjoy optimised system performance. When done enjoying music, the chair can be kept away. No harm trying. If it doesn’t work out, at least you’ve tried and know how it sounds like seating away from back wall.

However, I will install heavy curtains for the windows. Hopefully, we will get a bigger house shortly, and I will arrange a mancave for myself )
But, Would adding two absorption panels (600x600x50mm) behind the speakers, plus three panels (600x1200x50mm) behind the sofa (replacing the current pictures), make a noticeable difference?

Additional absorption panels can help dampen room a little bit. Normal furnishings like bookcase or open cupboards with stuff in it are similarly effective.

Be aware that bass wavelengths are in meters, 50mm isn’t gonna help much with bass absorption. My preference is to use EQ to deal with bass generated room modes.

 

[ZolaIII]

@DanielT with little over 9m length room fundamental will be at 17 Hz and you can use it for time domain compensation in sub bass (so that it doesn't lag behind) to ISO 226 2012 and later. Even in Harman reference listening room you won't have ability to put sub so strategically that it gets such wall reinforcement while keeping it relatively close. With very good ratio of back to front refractions ISO 3382-2 you get close to free field or at least ISO 3382-1. In other words you get great separation and soundstage. Simply plugging the port's and using close buffle sub you lower the other wall refractions and eliminate or considerably lower the one's in ported boxes. All it needs is a little work. I whosent kidding about how such opportunity is almost unique. I didn't suggest him to buy anything except thick curtains and eventually sub (if he hasn't got one), and he can pass with only one (which others need 4) with remarkable effect.

 

[DanielT]

@DanielT with little over 9m length room fundamental will be at 17 Hz and you can use it for time domain compensation in sub bass (so that it doesn't lag behind) to ISO 226 2012 and later. Even in Harman reference listening room you won't have ability to put sub so strategically that it gets such wall reinforcement while keeping it relatively close. With very good ratio of back to front refractions ISO 3382-2 you get close to free field or at least ISO 3382-1. In other words you get great separation and soundstage. Simply plugging the port's and using close buffle sub you lower the other wall refractions and eliminate or considerably lower the one's in ported boxes. All it needs is a little work. I whosent kidding about how such opportunity is almost unique. I don't suggest him to buy anything except thick curtains and eventually sub (if he hasn't got one), and he can pass with only one (which others need 4) with remarkable effect.

I agree with you on that.

When I think about it, OP, when he says we will get a bigger house shortly, by shortly he hardly means that it will happen within like a week. Then there would have been no idea to fix in the current home and it would have been unnecessary to start this thread. OP obviously wants to fix in his current home, so then we can give tips and advice about that.

A tip for OP regarding his future mancave. IF free rein is given with a completely empty and unfurnished room. Don't put up TOO many absorbers and diffusers. That can create a too sterile, dry and boring sound. Lagom is the best.

Lagom is a Swedish word with meanings such as "neither too much nor too little", "without exaggeration", "for the purpose 'appropriate' size, quantity", etc.

Lagom – Wikipedia

sv.wikipedia.org

 

[ZolaIII]

I agree with you on that.

When I think about it, OP, when he says we will get a bigger house shortly, by shortly he hardly means that it will happen within like a week. Then there would have been no idea to fix in the current home and it would have been unnecessary to start this thread. OP obviously wants to fix in his current home, so then we can give tips and advice about that.

I think in perspective he wants to buy bigger apartment for kids sake but even if he has money that usually rarely takes less than a year. You know what from your own personal experience and future plans. New bigger apartment will have more small kids and sleeping rooms but it won't have longer one (and that's a key). I give up!

 

[Bjorn]

Thanks everyone for the great advice! I appreciate all your help. @boxerfan88 @DanielT @ZolaIII @Bjorn
Unfortunately, my living room layout can't be changed, so I cannot rearrange the furniture or reposition the speakers. However, I will install heavy curtains for the windows. Hopefully, we will get a bigger house shortly, and I will arrange a mancave for myself )
But, Would adding two absorption panels (600x600x50mm) behind the speakers, plus three panels (600x1200x50mm) behind the sofa (replacing the current pictures), make a noticeable difference?

50mm is why too thin. They will only work effectively in the area where the speakers are sending energy forward.

The best treatment here would be something that diffuses higher frequencies and absorbs lower. But you probably have limited options in Vietnam.

 

[Bjorn]

Your biggest problem as it is is that sofa is so close to the back wall. Nothing will resolve issue you have because of that. If you at least move it a bit out and put some diffusion panels behind it might.
You have unique opportunity to see and hear how it sounds with good ratio of back to front refractions along with nice bass reenactment from the walls with sub put where (and how) I told you. You don't really lose on space usability (other than TV). You won't get such chance even when you move to "better", bigger apartment (as modern design sucks).

You can't diffuse much with short distance FYI. Diffusion requires distance.

 

[ZolaIII]

You can't diffuse much with short distance FYI. Diffusion requires distance.

He is direct to the wall so I said at least move it a bit out and put diffusers on and depending how much it will/might. Context is there, at least you didn't strip quoted it out of it. And if he doesn't, there is no treatment that will help.

 

[Bjorn]

He is direct to the wall so I said at least move it a bit out and put diffusers on and depending how much it will/might. Context is there, at least you didn't strip quoted it out of it. And if he doesn't, there is no treatment that will help.

Moving a bit out is still too close for diffusion. It will imply only high frequency diffusion and which is bandlimited, thus not a good choice.
Broadband treatment is key to good treatment.

There's still treatment that can improve a lot. Though I agree that using a movable chair closer to speakers would be beneficial as well.