New Hi Fi system is bright :(

[Avp1]

Lots of reflective surfaces there without treatment, close proximity to an untreated back wall, lots of glass... I'm willing to bet the room is contributing a lot to your perception of higher frequencies.

Room is too small to be used without treatment. Since this seems to be a special purpose room, you should add panels on both front and back walls and add heavy drapes over window. That will make the huge difference. Also replace area rug with thicker one. All that will help you to reduce room influence on sound. If all that still not enough - play with tone adjustments (I hope your preamp does have them).

 

[kemmler3D]

First of all, thank you all for replying and trying to help, I appreciate it.

So short update:
Today I took all the stuff I have been keeping in my spare room to fight reverb and put it in my living room as you can see in the attached photo (just for testing).
There's much less echo now and it improved the sound.
I feel like putting the rug closer to the speakers and getting the table out of the place were the most significant changes.
I think I can hear more bass now which makes me feel like the sound is more full.

Another interesting discovery - I use the TV as the source (or the amp's Bluetooth) and it turns out the volume of recordings in the Apple Music application on the TV is significantly lower than the iPhone's application. That's super weird. So now I just airplay from the iPhone to the TV or using the Bluetooth of the amp directly.
I also realized that prior to a few hours ago, I had a 'sound check' setting on the iPhone that might have messed with the tonality, IDK.
Although I recall that I couldn't tell the difference between streaming from iPhone or using the native app in the TV prior to today (their volume happened to be similar because of that volume limit setting that was enabled).

I do have something like 5 days to return the amp if I want.
Now I wonder if should just EQ the system to my liking (after acoustically treating the room) or replace the amp, maybe with a tube one or Arcam SA20.
My options are quite limited where I live.
The thing I liked about this amp is that its price is very competitive here. Some products from other places of the world can cost double the price for absolutely no reason.
So I will further test that amp but I am still wondering if I should just replace it or EQ.


You are right. In the soundbar, I have 'woofer setting' and it was all the way up (but frankly, I don't hear THAT much difference when it has a 'neutral' woofer setting).
And yes, I love the sound of the Airpods Pro.

A good start. One look at your room and the problem was obvious. Basically all reflective surfaces, very little absorption.

You came from a soundbar with probably not very much treble and lots of bass, to the KEF which has pretty good treble and even dispersion.

So in comparison it sounded like a knife in the ear.

I would say if you can get more heavy drapes, rugs, furniture, or even acoustic foam it might help a bit. However, if you go too far with this, you will quickly lose treble (and only treble) and the whole thing will sound boxy / muddy.

If you think the sound is OK right now, I would say to use some EQ to tweak the sound a bit more before adding more acoustic treatment. It is easy to overdo it with acoustic treatment for treble.

The most affordable way I know of to add EQ is this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...lladsp-set-up-instructions-for-newbies.30830/ (costs around $50-100 US)

However, you can get a MiniDSP 2x4 for about double that.

Don't bother getting a different amp, it won't help unless it has tone controls... but tone controls are basically the same as using one of these EQ solutions.

A tube amp may or may not help... they are not all inherently warm, the effects are hard to predict, and the amps themselves tend to be expensive. I would try a tube amp last of all your options, even though they look cool.

You can also use a mini PC and use EQAPO, which is what I was doing recently. Pretty much any windows PC will work, and you can often find refurbished mini workstations for very cheap on Amazon. (example here is one under $90 https://www.amazon.com/HP-Prodesk-600-G2-Computer/dp/B082MPZ839/) EQ is very easy for a PC to do, so you don't need anything fancy. From there you need toslink IN and OUT, (and a DAC, probably) which can be a little harder to find, but the unit referenced in the CamillaDSP thread should work also.

This is all good for a 2.0 or 2.1 setup in most cases.

 

[ozzy9832001]

First of all, thank you all for replying and trying to help, I appreciate it.

So short update:
Today I took all the stuff I have been keeping in my spare room to fight reverb and put it in my living room as you can see in the attached photo (just for testing).
There's much less echo now and it improved the sound.
I feel like putting the rug closer to the speakers and getting the table out of the place were the most significant changes.
I think I can hear more bass now which makes me feel like the sound is more full.

Another interesting discovery - I use the TV as the source (or the amp's Bluetooth) and it turns out the volume of recordings in the Apple Music application on the TV is significantly lower than the iPhone's application. That's super weird. So now I just airplay from the iPhone to the TV or using the Bluetooth of the amp directly.
I also realized that prior to a few hours ago, I had a 'sound check' setting on the iPhone that might have messed with the tonality, IDK.
Although I recall that I couldn't tell the difference between streaming from iPhone or using the native app in the TV prior to today (their volume happened to be similar because of that volume limit setting that was enabled).

I do have something like 5 days to return the amp if I want.
Now I wonder if should just EQ the system to my liking (after acoustically treating the room) or replace the amp, maybe with a tube one or Arcam SA20.
My options are quite limited where I live.
The thing I liked about this amp is that its price is very competitive here. Some products from other places of the world can cost double the price for absolutely no reason.
So I will further test that amp but I am still wondering if I should just replace it or EQ.


You are right. In the soundbar, I have 'woofer setting' and it was all the way up (but frankly, I don't hear THAT much difference when it has a 'neutral' woofer setting).
And yes, I love the sound of the Airpods Pro.

You could probably add a high shelf filter at about 1khz -3 to -5 dB and see how that sounds. Will take a lot of the brightness out of the sound.

 

[ozzy9832001]

A lot of people here are talking way too much about the speakers measurements and the room.

Yes, those things influence, but the main problem OP has is he is missing a subwoofer.

When you put a proper 20hz capable sub in the mix, it fills out the lower octaves, and you will not experience the brightness anymore.

Also, the genre of music you listen to is definitely on the brighter end. But because you don't have a sub, brightness is even more overpowering.

Get a sub, put a house curve on it and the issue will be fixed.

The advise to buy a microphone and take measurements is sound advise. They are $80. Very affordable and cost effective.

Recommending he buys a $1000 subwoofer that goes all the way down to 20hz is not very affordable and may not even solve his problem.

An overly bright mid/treble will still be bright even when paired with a subwoofer. xDB is still xDB. He'd just have an overly blown out bass to go along with it.

The room is highly reflection from the glass to the tile floors. It's not unfixable but will require time and effort. Finding the ideal listening position is crucial. EQ can get them part of the way there, but in order to know what to EQ he's going to need to do measurements.

 

[sam_adams]

Given the responses received here and the responses the the OP has received—for the same question—from the astute experts over here, the best solution is to return all the equipment and simply move to a different place with better acoustics and start over.

 

[valerianf]

Anyway, whatever the Kef R3 measured, if you feel the sound too bright, use the treeble adjustment of the amp.
In the old time there was always a treeble adjustment.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Your getting there but for best sound quality you need a lot more. Aim to get it into a complete tip, like my room:



I use Focals, supposed to be the world's brightest speakers according to some folk. Never, ever bright in here.

Thought it was only women who nested. I swear some of you "enthusiasts" rooms are messy as f***..
Don't know why that surprises me.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Anyway, whatever the Kef R3 measured, if you feel the sound too bright, use the treeble adjustment of the amp.
In the old time there was always a treeble adjustment.

True. It really doesn't need to be raised to a complicated issue.

 

[Snoopy]

With that room it might be more affordable to switch to headphones

 

[Pawnshop123]

I did save about 25% of the budget to a subwoofer.
I will probably get SVS 3000 SB.
Or maybe two cheaper ones.

Also, I will probably move out of this apartment in a year to a place of my own (current place is rented).

 

[computer-audiophile]

Don't know why that surprises me.

I have asked for pictures before and perhaps even made myself unpopular with some participants. They almost always tell me quite a lot.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Also, I will probably move out of this apartment in a year to a place of my own (current place is rented).

The room looks really unsuitable. In this configuration, a good listening experience is unlikely. You could try listening with these speakers in the direct near field but then again it doesn't fit with the big TV.

 

[thewas]

Anyway, whatever the Kef R3 measured, if you feel the sound too bright, use the treeble adjustment of the amp.
In the old time there was always a treeble adjustment.

Or as I had written above probably the bass knob as usually such issues are (lack of) bass issues.

 

[Sokel]

Thought it was only women who nested. I swear some of you "enthusiasts" rooms are messy as f***..
Don't know why that surprises me.

Typical fooling around day at the the side of the stuff

(long cables there is because isolation is prohibited,main stuff are measured as-is and at their permanent place,the one you see is my silly DIY stuff with el. x-overs,I have some all over the place)

 

[benanders]

Given the responses received here and the responses the the OP has received—for the same question—from the astute experts over here, the best solution is to return all the equipment and simply move to a different place with better acoustics and start over.

I was wondering how long it would be, before the most obvious solution cropped up.
Well, almost. Obviously should buy this place, prior to moving. That’s the only safe x legal way this addy can be taken off the market so no one else ever has to reflect on its acoustical issues.

@Pawnshop123 has some staying power, man. I don’t know if I’d have had the fortitude for this level of recommendations for my first hifi kit!

One aid for the current approach (HF vs. bare concrete walls) that I used up ‘til a few years back was to affix a handful of stick-on plastic hooks in strategic locations; I hung narrow rods / clothes hangers with fabric fastened to them just when I was listening louder than background level. Rest of the time the walls were uncovered. Too “bright” can be easy to tame in some cases and doesn’t always require permanent mods.

 

[Mart68]

@Pawnshop123 has some staying power, man. I don’t know if I’d have had the fortitude for this level of recommendations for my first hifi kit!

I think he's really fortunate that there's a place he can ask his question and get the correct answers. In my day there was nothing like that.

He's got a three pronged approach:

1. Passive room treatment
2. EQ
3. Subwoofers

Not too complicated. In days gone by room treatment was never mentioned in the magazines, and EQ and subwoofers were frowned upon. So we have progressed.

 

[Willem]

The room is an obvious issue. How about cheap curtains for starters?

 

[computer-audiophile]

The room is an obvious issue. How about cheap curtains for starters?

... and no subwoofers please. They can excite the room too much with room modes.

 

[Willem]

Indeed: you cannnot compensate brightness by adding bass. You have to reduce the brightness. In this case the cause is obvious, and so is the cure. By the looks of it, not even the sofa is soft, but some reflective vinyl or leather.

 

[thewas]

... and no subwoofers please. They can excite the room too much with room modes.

Too much bass can be tamed without too much effort but the other way around is not really solvable.