New 28-bit DAC coming out.

[unpluggged]

Whoever finances the existence of the publication/platform for the review, and the review itself, of course. I'll surely get pushback, but I might as well write it: Let's not be naive about the nature of hifi reviews.

No, if you mean that RME is buying reviewers, be upfront about that. I think @MC_RME would like to see your evidence.

 

[Aspirant Audiophile]

No, if you mean that RME is buying reviewers, be upfront about that. I think @MC_RME would like to see your evidence.

Most likely Matthias will quickly understand that you misunderstood my post. Have a nice day

 

[unpluggged]

Most likely Matthias will quickly understand that you misunderstood my post. Have a nice day

Yeah, it's so easy to misunderstand this "ambiguous" phrase:

the RME ADI-2, for which he's stuck out his neck, and about which he's posted on forums like Head-fi, with very high praise for RME. In other words: If Katz is fully bought and paid for in this review, won't it catch up with him eventually?

 

[Aspirant Audiophile]

Yeah, it's so easy to misunderstand this "ambiguous" phrase:

I'm not going to get into a posting battle with you. But I do think you should read the original review I'm commenting on before jumping on my post, which isn't even about RME. Then you might see that there's no intended ambiguity at all on my end, and a (hopefully honest) misunderstanding on yours.

 

[mocenigo]

in other words: If Katz is fully bought and paid for in this review, won't it catch up with him eventually?

It never happens (statistically speaking).

 

[unpluggged]

I'm not going to get into a posting battle with you. But I do think you should read the original review I'm commenting on before jumping on my post, which isn't even about RME. Then you might see that there's no intended ambiguity at all on my end, and a (hopefully honest) misunderstanding on yours.

Could be so, and I appreciate you made it clearer. It could something to do with language barrier, I was not looking for a confrontation. Peace.

He can't help it,
He's a FAN BOY that apparently either does not understand or go for subtle humor. And also apparently can't read between the lines.
Thank God for a bunch of us, though: Funny as can be.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[EJ3]

Could be so, and I appreciate you made it clearer. It could something to do with language barrier, I was not looking for a confrontation. Peace.


Thank you for your kind words.

You're welcome. Of course: perceptions can be simply differences in culture in where one was raised.
19 years later (how long I have been married) we are from places 9000 miles apart & met on a tiny Island that was one a fuel stop for freighters crossing the Pacific that is nowhere near where either one of us is from. We have vast differences in cultural things (humor included). Somehow we manage.
No confrontation intended, just a different view of things.
And: I appreciate your humor on this matter.

 

[autoformer]

I just became aware of this, while speaking with our mastering engineer yesterday. He’s been hearing first-hand accounts from colleagues in the industry. It’s legit…the mastering world is abuzz about this new DAC. It’s supposed to be shockingly good. Millennia Media is a very well-regarded pro audio company. You’ll find their high voltage preamps in places like Skywalker studios, and in wide use for live classical recording. I have been using their NSEQ-2 EQ with the Forssell solid state mod for years. The HV-32P stereo preamp is outstanding for field work. Really, anything they make is first-rate.

I don’t think MSRP has been formally announced yet, but it’s expected to be around $12-14k and I won’t be surprised if it’s worth every penny.

 

[antcollinet]

I just became aware of this, while speaking with our mastering engineer yesterday. He’s been hearing first-hand accounts from colleagues in the industry. It’s legit…the mastering world is abuzz about this new DAC. It’s supposed to be shockingly good. Millennia Media is a very well-regarded pro audio company. You’ll find their high voltage preamps in places like Skywalker studios, and in wide use for live classical recording. I have been using their NSEQ-2 EQ with the Forssell solid state mod for years. The HV-32P stereo preamp is outstanding for field work. Really, anything they make is first-rate.

I don’t think MSRP has been formally announced yet, but it’s expected to be around $12-14k and I won’t be surprised if it’s worth every penny.

It might have benefits in the audio mastering chain if there are multiple ADC/DAC steps, and you are trying to avoid build up of errors over many processes. But then I'd ask why anyone is mastering with multiple ADC/DAC steps.

It has no benefits in a reproduction system - where dacs are already routinely audibly perfect, even at the low cost end of the market.

 

[Mnyb]

It might have benefits in the audio mastering chain if there are multiple ADC/DAC steps, and you are trying to avoid build up of errors over many processes. But then I'd ask why anyone is mastering with multiple ADC/DAC steps.

It has no benefits in a reproduction system - where dacs are already routinely audibly perfect, even at the low cost end of the market.

I guess that the ADC could benefit from this ? massive dynamic variations when recording instruments with microphones etc .

 

[Martini]

I guess that the ADC could benefit from this ? massive dynamic variations when recording instruments with microphones etc .

Which they then compress the living day-lights out of, so that it's almost intolerable to listen to and sell that crap to us.

 

[IVX]

Which they then compress the living day-lights out of, so that it's almost intolerable to listen to and sell that crap to us.

it isn't exactly about the compression but yeah, it is kinda crap indeed. We will face some more or less audible artifacts, no doubt. I still remember 2000th when DACs with auto-mute appeared, it was a scam because there were no any improvements in sound quality, just a simple trick to deceive the S/N test. Next, AES released AES Dynamic Range test i.e. THD+N@1kHz test at -60dbfs, and automuted DACs were exposed. Today we have a second season of the same serial, "How to deceive the DR test?". They are offering two cheap DACs(or ADCs) cascaded, to get -60dbfs test with a low-gain chip DAC#1 and hide its noise. Fooled AES DR test will show a gigantic but fake DR. High-gain cheap DAC#2 plays 0dbfs level and shows us its true-cheap THD+N performance. CS42*** chips use a single DAC, but its gain is switchable, so it is the same thing, even cheaper. Ok, marketing guys won, but who else? Who can stop us from measuring THD+N at 0dbfs to see the real DR?

 

[AnalogSteph]

To be fair, no human hearing needs an actual 130 dB instantaneous dynamic range, but it requires a bunch of power. (Which is why the big ESS 8ch DACs run nice and toasty.) Particularly in mobile applications, being able to deliver 110ish dB out of 130 makes a ton of sense. Otherwise you're just wasting power on things nobody can possibly hear. It's not exactly the kind of thing you want for measurement purposes, obviously.

 

[autoformer]

It might have benefits in the audio mastering chain if there are multiple ADC/DAC steps, and you are trying to avoid build up of errors over many processes. But then I'd ask why anyone is mastering with multiple ADC/DAC steps.

It has no benefits in a reproduction system - where dacs are already routinely audibly perfect, even at the low cost end of the market.

It’s always a good idea to minimize generational loss in a mastering studio. “Do no harm” is one of the guiding principles.

When you have guys like Katz, Cuniberti et al saying that the new Imersiv D/A is audibly superior to anything they’ve heard, you can believe it. These are serious people who don’t spend money frivolously. Gear must pay for itself. They are all saying that the Imersiv is not an incremental improvement to the many delta-sigma DACs we’ve been living with for years now. It’s an entirely new concept. I don’t see any reason why a well-heeled audiophile with a mastering-grade signal chain shouldn’t use the best converters.

In our facility and when we record on location, all the A/D-D/A is done with Merging, Nagra or Sound Devices equipment, and we’re going to listen to the Imersiv as soon as we can get our hands on one. It will have to be very good indeed to match Merging, which is already about as good as it gets. We’ll see.

Measurements are one set of data points, not the be-all end-all. We are human beings with ears, not computers with test leads. Listening and how something sounds subjectively also matters.

 

[RickS]

I just became aware of this, while speaking with our mastering engineer yesterday. He’s been hearing first-hand accounts from colleagues in the industry. It’s legit…the mastering world is abuzz about this new DAC. It’s supposed to be shockingly good. Millennia Media is a very well-regarded pro audio company. You’ll find their high voltage preamps in places like Skywalker studios, and in wide use for live classical recording. I have been using their NSEQ-2 EQ with the Forssell solid state mod for years. The HV-32P stereo preamp is outstanding for field work. Really, anything they make is first-rate.

I don’t think MSRP has been formally announced yet, but it’s expected to be around $12-14k and I won’t be surprised if it’s worth every penny.

So who do you work for? And what is your role?

 

[IVX]

To be fair, no human hearing needs an actual 130 dB instantaneous dynamic range, but it requires a bunch of power. (Which is why the big ESS 8ch DACs run nice and toasty.) Particularly in mobile applications, being able to deliver 110ish dB out of 130 makes a ton of sense. Otherwise you're just wasting power on things nobody can possibly hear. It's not exactly the kind of thing you want for measurement purposes, obviously.

I agree, 130db(A) in fact more than enough, but offering DAC with 137db(A) of a true DR isn't a scam, it is a pricy state-of-the-art DAC(like ES9039Pro with THD+N@1k -131db). A similar story if a kitchen water filter has better purity than you need, alright, save your money and buy a simpler one. However, a filter that boasts "phenomenal purity" but only by deceiving the test methodology is a 100.00% scam. Look, their THD+N spec is just -114db, it is worse than CS43131 $10/handful, also with a fake DR. In other words, there are 2 pieces of a marginal quality DACs + audible split-gain artifacts, and now it should sound as the best converter ever? Сute

 

[Rja4000]

Listening and how something sounds subjectively also matters.

Then, and IF it's proven that there is a consistent significant difference by properly done repeated controlled tests, we'll have to explain it -and be able to predict it- with more measurements.

 

[solderdude]

To be fair, no human hearing needs an actual 130 dB instantaneous dynamic range, but it requires a bunch of power.

There are literally over 100 IEMs that have an efficiency of over 130dB/V (the loudest ones such as Campfire Audio even are > 140dB/V) require less than 1V so a phone/dongle can make them reach those levels.
But sure ... with speakers it will take quite some power at normal listening distances.

 

[Mnyb]

It’s always a good idea to minimize generational loss in a mastering studio. “Do no harm” is one of the guiding principles.

When you have guys like Katz, Cuniberti et al saying that the new Imersiv D/A is audibly superior to anything they’ve heard, you can believe it. These are serious people who don’t spend money frivolously. Gear must pay for itself. They are all saying that the Imersiv is not an incremental improvement to the many delta-sigma DACs we’ve been living with for years now. It’s an entirely new concept. I don’t see any reason why a well-heeled audiophile with a mastering-grade signal chain shouldn’t use the best converters.

In our facility and when we record on location, all the A/D-D/A is done with Merging, Nagra or Sound Devices equipment, and we’re going to listen to the Imersiv as soon as we can get our hands on one. It will have to be very good indeed to match Merging, which is already about as good as it gets. We’ll see.

Measurements are one set of data points, not the be-all end-all. We are human beings with ears, not computers with test leads. Listening and how something sounds subjectively also matters.

we have a ta closed tread you can peruse with this kind of thoughts .

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Even if people are both senior and serious and more competent than most of us ( apeal to authority ) its still not humanly possible to tell reasonably well designed DAC's apart in normal listening situations all differences vanishes in controlled listening tests .

 

[antcollinet]

It’s always a good idea to minimize generational loss in a mastering studio. “Do no harm” is one of the guiding principles.

What mastering studio is doing multiple DA conversions such that they need to avoid generational loss? Why is it not kept permanently in the digital domain?

I don’t see any reason why a well-heeled audiophile with a mastering-grade signal chain shouldn’t use the best converters.

Because they are not audibly distinguishable from a competent device costing $200. Sure - spend money for features, fancy case/aesthetics. But not for audible improvements in the sound - there are none, compared to any halfway decent DAC.