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New 28-bit DAC coming out.

Especially when the recent CS43131 thread showed us some DACs respond differently to music than they do test tones
Well, CS43131/43198 realizes the same idea as D1 i.e. switching of the DAC's gain. However, from an engineering point of view, Cirrus doesn't look clumsy at all, they made 3x3mm single chip DAC with about 5mA current draw, and AES DR test shows 130db(A). Of course, there is just about 120db(like CS4398 from the early 2000th) of an honest DR, but 3x3mm and 5mA + headphone output and $2/pcs makes sense. Anyhow, CS43131/43198 dominates on the portable headphone dongles market. Hence, Cirrus marketing staff weren't stupid when they ordered Cirrus engineering staff to deceive AES DR test ;)
 
I am not an engineer and my limited knowledge of this stuff comes almost entirely from reading ASR reviews, but I have done psychology research. I just want to respond to the notion that there's no way to 'prove' or support the claims that these dynamic range increases at low volumes are audible.

The abstract (I don't have full access) of the linked AES paper doesn't mention any double-blind testing. If you want to present evidence that the technological benefits of your multi-path DAC are audible, why not devise and run a double-blind test with clear methodology (for replication) and provide some statistical evidence? Using something like a mixed effects model, with say 30–40 participants, would allow you to control for age-related hearing loss, musical training or whatever other covariates you might think of. It would allow you to say that people with 'trained ears' do hear a difference. Although it takes time, this research is not that expensive as you likely already have most of the gear required; you just need people and a sensible methodology.

Again, I don't know how things work in engineering. This is how I would go about demonstrating a benefit, rather than getting people to talk about their personal experiences of veils lifting. While there's always room for qualitative findings, this sort of thing should be quantifiable. There are procedures and frameworks for properly testing this stuff.
 
I don't know how things work in engineering
Engineers try to do what marketing asked them to do. Then marketing tries to sell what engineering did. Engineers in their labs making miracles for the sake of the miracle is pure mythology written by ... marketing.
 
Agreed, that 'Hahaha' is a most inappropriate comment.
Yes, right. It was just an expression of my impression when reading the post. I take it back. My main point is what do 28 bit good when most music is provided as CD quality 16 bit 44,1 and downloads with more bits but not 28 bits ? For many listeners this is very good when the recording is also as good. Using 24 bit 96 is better and has more bits than nessesary for frequency and dynamic range of a human being. So why 28 bit ? Lower the noise floor even lower below unperceivable low already ?
Probably the 28 bit may be good in a recording studio where the DAW works internally with more bits such as Pyramix software when converting DSD signals to PCM for the mixing process ?
 
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One of the reasons I lost interest in ASR beyond responding to threads that I started, is that there are double standards.

Many on ASR value engineering achievements when they can be measured even though it is well beyond the point of audibility.

We criticize stuff when the stuff does not provide improvements in audibility

The worst tube amp in here may not sound any worse to a synthetic straight wire with gain under blind testing, and yet, no one here likes tubes for fidelity. Knowing that people struggle to hear the difference from a 22 dB SINAD amp, tells you that the vast majority of products do not have any audible benefit. If you fall into the “only if it’s audible” camp, 100% of the electronic reviews here are not at all interesting beyond the subjective ergonomic and setup.

Then there is a group of ASR enthusiasts that value measurements even if it’s inaudible due to engineering prowess. That’s fine. We buy art. We buy fashion. We vote with our wallet by buying engineering art.

Here, this DAC seems to offer several orders of magnitude performance improvements at -40 dBFS and lower. That’s really cool when verified by a third party, which it has been done. It might NOT have much improvement at 4V out compared to others, but that isn’t what they are advertising.

So if you are unhappy with the claims of audibility, we should still be happy with independent measurements putting SINAD at -90 and -70 dBFS measurements at never before seen levels of performance, right?
Basically yes :) But the designers are pushing the agenda thats this is audible not just proves in engineering which it actually is , incredibly soo . They even claim an uncontrolled eureka moment when it was "obvious" ;) it exactly at those moments you should pull the brakes and do your controlled tests...

All other have struggled for decades to detect any DAC ?

Maybe low level performance can be off great interest if you crank the volume and listen to reverb tails in your studio , thats not how we normally listen at home..

However the same problem is inherent in the source material ?
 
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Just like to add a few things here: From the outset, it looks like Imersiv D1 DAC is using what is commonly referred to as gain ranging. Two converters work in series, one for lower bits handing over to the other for higher bits. The telling sign of this arrangement is a definite shift in the noise floor at the handover point and this is clearly seen in Imersiv data. I haven't checked the patent to see what was mentioned as prior art however Stagetec used gain ranging in their Truematch ADC converters to acheive 158dB Dynamic Range. There have been others and I'm pretty sure current TI ADC TLV320xxxx uses some form of gain ranging (they call 'DRE') evident by the noise floor shift at about -30dBFS.
 
Just like to add a few things here: From the outset, it looks like Imersiv D1 DAC is using what is commonly referred to as gain ranging.

There have been many names given to this type of topology since the 1950s: multi-path, floating, adaptive, heuristic, gain ranging or auto-ranging, cascaded, parallel, and more recently floating point, which is misleading. But that's another conversation. We prefer "multi-path."

The first known use of multi-path in DACs was probably 1981 by JVC. Some discrete DACs today employ a limited form of multi-path, as do some ICs. Imersiv HDR-A architecure greatly improves on historical multi-path designs. The D-1 DAC has received three patents to-date, with more in process. This is the first commercial DAC architecture (that we know of) to significantly reduce noise at lower perceptual levels. The D-1 improves today's best DAC performance by 40dB (100X), delivering 168dB of broadband, unweighted linearity and dynamic range, free of inter-sample-overs. For those interested, there's a much deeper conversation on the FAQ: https://imersiv.com/faq/
 
The DAC thing is starting to look like the digital camera pixel boom, which became somewhat ridiculous (and still is on smartphones when people ooh-aah about 200mp cameras). Give me fewer but better pixels for better low light behavior - bigger pixels get more light).
Strong parallel between multi-path photography (usually called HDR -- high dynamic range photography) and multi-path audio (what we call HDR-A). Sony has a new multi-path CCD that uses two paths per pixel, to increase dynamic range: https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/technology/mobile/2-layer-pixel.html

Also very happy to report that the imersiv D-1 multi-path DAC just won First Prize (Electronics category) in the Create the Future Design Contest, the largest "future tech" design contest, with over 600 entries from 67 countries: https://contest.techbriefs.com/2025...dio-digital-to-analog-performance-improvement
 
Strong parallel between multi-path photography (usually called HDR -- high dynamic range photography) and multi-path audio (what we call HDR-A). Sony has a new multi-path CCD that uses two paths per pixel, to increase dynamic range: https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/technology/mobile/2-layer-pixel.html

Also very happy to report that the imersiv D-1 multi-path DAC just won First Prize (Electronics category) in the Create the Future Design Contest, the largest "future tech" design contest, with over 600 entries from 67 countries: https://contest.techbriefs.com/2025...dio-digital-to-analog-performance-improvement
The difference is photography still can benefit from increased low light performance and dynamic range... we CAN see the difference.

The same can't be said about DACs. 170dB SINAD. Why not 10000dB? Makes zero difference to what we hear.
 
The difference is photography still can benefit from increased low light performance and dynamic range... we CAN see the difference.

The same can't be said about DACs. 170dB SINAD. Why not 10000dB? Makes zero difference to what we hear.
In a multi-path audio architecture, measured THD+N drops significantly in the perceptual atmospheric region (roughly -40dBFS to -90dBFS). The parallel with optical multi-path is strikingly similar. We find this THD+N improvement is audible when A/B compared with our collection of single-path DACs, especially on well-recorded acoustic music with wide dynamic range. We've been in beta testing with dozens of professional audio engineers for the last 16 months or so, and a consensus has emerged that HDR-A audibly improves atmospheric detail. At some point, we will create a blind, large-sample ABX trial. Hopefully, ASR can be involved. Some pro comments, here: https://imersiv.com/user-comments/
 
The difference is photography still can benefit from increased low light performance and dynamic range... we CAN see the difference.

The same can't be said about DACs. 170dB SINAD. Why not 10000dB? Makes zero difference to what we hear.


Made me look 'cause it's something I don't know...

"The dynamic range of photographic film varies significantly by film type, but common negative films offer about 11-13 stops (roughly 66-78 dB) and slide films can have as little as 5 stops (around 30 dB)."

"The best digital camera sensors offer dynamic ranges from approximately 13 to 15 stops (or ~78 to ~90 dB). High-end cinema cameras provide up to 15.3 stops of dynamic range, while high-resolution full-frame cameras such as the Nikon D850 and Hasselblad X1D-50c achieve around 14.8 stops."

"The dynamic range of the human eye in decibels (dB) varies: the instantaneous range is about 20-40 dB (100-1,000:1), while the total adaptive range can be much larger, around 100-120 dB (1,000,000:1 to 10,000,000,000:1), spanning from starlight to bright sunlight."
 
Retina Vs. Cochlea ... ?

Both need time to achieve their lowest levels after exposure to their highest.

And seem to have a similar ultimate range.

I asked about skin and temperature range in dB but the all knowing AI wouldn't give me an answer. It wouldn't dB temperature, despite my prodding.
 
In a multi-path audio architecture, measured THD+N drops significantly in the perceptual atmospheric region (roughly -40dBFS to -90dBFS). The parallel with optical multi-path is strikingly similar. We find this THD+N improvement is audible when A/B compared with our collection of single-path DACs, especially on well-recorded acoustic music with wide dynamic range. We've been in beta testing with dozens of professional audio engineers for the last 16 months or so, and a consensus has emerged that HDR-A audibly improves atmospheric detail. At some point, we will create a blind, large-sample ABX trial. Hopefully, ASR can be involved. Some pro comments, here: https://imersiv.com/user-comments/
You'll forgive me if I remain skeptical. There is significant evidence that it is not even possible to detect an improvement from 16 to 24 bit audio when blind tested. Even less so in real world listening with speakers in a typical room.

Im not saying it is - but your argument sounds very similar to all the so called high end audio manufacturers - selling "improvements" that simply don't exist audibly.

I look forward to you finding a way to convince me not only that the difference is audible - but also significant enough to impact the enjoyment of music.

I'm not going to hold my breath though.
 
Both need time to achieve their lowest levels after exposure to their highest.

I asked about skin and temperature range in dB but the all knowing AI wouldn't give me an answer. It wouldn't dB temperature, despite my prodding.
Next target to ask AI: urinary bladder ... :cool:
 
In a multi-path audio architecture, measured THD+N drops significantly in the perceptual atmospheric region (roughly -40dBFS to -90dBFS).
What is the perceptual atmospheric region? Graphs that illustrate the difference between a current well engineered dac and yours would be the best way to explain.
 
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We find this THD+N improvement is audible when A/B compared with our collection of single-path DACs, especially on well-recorded acoustic music with wide dynamic range. We've been in beta testing with dozens of professional audio engineers for the last 16 months or so, and a consensus has emerged that HDR-A audibly improves atmospheric detail.
Do you have a playlist with that well-recorded music?
 
Hello everyone,

I feel that I have to comment on the review from Bob Katz on this new ‘multi-path’ DAC design, because people in this thread seem to think the measurements of the unnamed 'standard' DAC were from an ADI-2 DAC FS. As you will see this is definitely not the case. Furthermore the review measurements show very unusual, bad results, that need both clarification and correction. Quotations from that review start with ‘BK’, as now:

BK: Next, I lowered the test tone level to -70 dBFS, which produces -56 dBu analog level. I amplified the input level 60 dB with a high-performance microphone preamplifier to overcome the analyzer ADC performance. Then I recalibrated the reading to reflect the actual dBu levels from the DAC. As you can see (Fig. 3), at this low level, the sine wave is corrupted by noise and distortion within the single path DAC. At this level, the single path DAC produces 2.18%/2.24% THD (without noise), Left/Right channel. The noise is significant enough so that THD+N rises to 3.25%/3.47%. These unimpressive low level characteristics are similar to that of all standard (single-path) DACs.

There is so much objectively wrong here, so let’s get into details. I tried to replicate the setup as good as possible: sending a -70 dBFS 1 kHz sine at 96 kHz sample rate from the SPDIF output of the APx555B to the ADI-2 DAC, the analog output goes back to the APx. Without that 60 dB gain amp, because – as shown later – it doesn’t make any difference for these measurements (it would do in specific others). I also set the APx to an (unusual) 1M FFT size, and made sure the Analyzer results are capped to SR/2 bandwidth, like in the review.

Pic 1 shows the result: This ‘single path DAC’ produces -51 dBu output level (quite similar to the review), but THD+N is a mere 0.4% instead of 3.3%. That is 8 times better than the ‘standard DAC’ used in the test. And I do not claim that this is an unusual result – DACs with top AKM and ESS converters (as tested all the time here at ASR) can easily show even better results (noise floor in FFT around 8 dB lower, so even lower THD+N values).

pic1_70 dBFS.png


As the FFT also clearly shows there is 0 (zero) distortion. If there is it would be hidden in the noise floor, but even with averaging none became visible. That means THD here is at least -100 dB, or below 0.001%. This is in stark contrast to the continued mentioning of distortion in the review, where there might have been no distortion at all but only noise, or the computed distortion values do not make any sense as SpectraPlus was not able to differ noise from harmonics. Modern ‘standard DACs’ do not distort at lower levels, not at all.

While the review does not include FFT screenshots from this measurement , we can grasp what’s going on with the next measurement at -90 dBFS. Once again my results in pic 2 show a very different picture of today’s ‘single path DACs’. The difference in THD+N is so big (3.8% to 38%) that it becomes obvious something is very wrong in the review. The respective FFTs have nothing in common. The noise floor from the ADI-2 DAC’s APx measurement is about 30 dB (!) lower, and there is (again) zero distortion. THD is unknown, but at least -65 dB, or lower than 0.056% - world’s apart from the stated 6.6% (not to mention that strange 5 Hz needle in the review’s FFT).

pic2_90 dBFS.png


BK: As you can see, the single path DAC's waveform is hardly recognizable as a sine wave, as there is so much noise and distortion

There is no distortion visible – only noise. The APx Scope of the ADI-2 DAC signal shows a bit noisy waveform, but still a good sine. I wanted to know what it looks like using an ADI-2/4 Pro as ADC to capture this signal, similar to the setup in the review. The result matches the APx, see pic 3.

pic3_adi24_adi2dac.png


So while the D1 shows a perfectly clean sine (it should), any other DAC will show a bit noise on the signal – but nothing like what is shown in the review.

BK: Never Before Seen in Print. No one, I mean no one, has ever seen a clean -90 dBFS sine waveform from any DAC, until today!

I would have to disagree. All DACs reaching 120 dB SNR are capable of that – and that is quite the norm these days. Maybe the D1 looks even more clean and smooth, but the notion that they all look like the mess shown in the review is wrong.

I also did a screenshot of what the APx could analyze, see pic 4. For evaluating the D1 I expect values like THD, THD+N and SNR/DR are limited on the AP side, and need either an external preamp or cannot be measured correctly at all. But the FFT itself seems more than capable to show a difference between a single path and multi-path DAC (BTW, I would have preferred the term dual-path). Here is the FFT with 3x averaging and inputs terminated with 150 Ohms. The noise floor is then around -165 dBu. That is more than enough to see any of the suggested advantages of the D1 (and also if the multiple spuriae from the review measurements are from the D1 or originate somewhere else).

pic4_150 Ohms.png


Also note that I tried to use my standard +34 dB preamp and was not able to get any different (improved) results from the -70 dBFS and -90 dBFS tests above. For this kind of stuff the APx seems sufficiently equipped already.
 
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