EJ3
Master Contributor
I don't understand why anyone cares (or should care) what someone else wants to spend their money on.
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- Thread starter GXAlan
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I don't - But I do care about people being misled about what they are buying for that spend. Lets face it, this site's primary vision is about cutting through the audio BS.
If they want to spend 50K on a pretty case and nice volume control - more power to them, as long as they know that is all they are getting, and are not being told it will take them to audio nirvana.
EJ3
Master Contributor
I feel like if someone is spending $3K on a DAC that they MAYBE are being misled. But if they are spending $14K on a DAC they are either using it for business (which may include showing off) or they like having things that others don't have (massaging their own EGO). Because, for aesthetics, if they have that kind of money to spend on whatever they want, they could have the electronics pot into custom cases & their own name put on it, if they wanted too.
Like I say, I don't care. 300, 3K or 30K it's up to them.
But I'll point out whenever someone suggests they might be buying better sound, that they are not.
But I'll point out whenever someone suggests they might be buying better sound, that they are not.
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IMO the joy of listening to music is a very subjective activity. If the 30K DAC makes the owner feel better, it contributes to his joy of listening. So it does serve its purpose. In objective terms it has no added value, but what makes people buy expensive devices (be it hifi/phones/cars/whatever) is certainly not objective. It makes them feel better, and IMO that's what counts. Fair game, IMO.
A different situation is if these people start asking technical questions why their gear sounds so good, or if they try to justify their decision with objective measures (and we see this here and elsewhere all the time).
solderdude
Grand Contributor
That might be true for people who can easily afford 30k DACs... I have no problem these people fooling themselves (which it basically is).
Problems with this way of thinking is the same is said about $ 1.5k DACs opposite say .... $ 150 DACs.
The vocal and 'better hearing' people will say the 1.5k DAC is 'better' and the people owning $ 150 DACs might want the 'dream' too and overspend for a dream basically.
Sure its their money and their dream but basically they only buy the dream and no real improvements.
Placebo works like a charm. In fact the audio world thrives on this. Isn't it better to expose this rather than let people keep dreaming.... till the next best thing comes along (or the best next specification that makes some folks salivate).
But buying a dream is the main driver for many other human purchasing decisions, isn't it? If it makes them feel better, it has served its purpose
Better than taking drugs, because that has negative consequences for the society, unlike buying expensive toys.You will not buy, I will not buy - we are technicians, we know how those things work internally, and appreciate the technical merit. But people have miscellaneous motivations, fortunately
By that I did not say that we should not keep pointing out real technical value of these devices
EJ3
Master Contributor
Yes, they are just not particularly directly useful to most of us in this HOME Audio Hobby.By that I did not say that we should not keep pointing out real technical value of these devices
IVX
Major Contributor
By the way, a cascaded ADC setup could be completely software-implemented. Left channel 1.7V, and the Right is 10V, other things are SW.
Moderate Dionysianism
Senior Member
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Are you kidding? Mass manufacturing and shipping of those toys consumes natural resources, and when big kids are fed up with them, those electronics get quietly dumped in poor countries.
So sure, by all means, you can argue it makes sense to sustain an industry producing pointless grownup gadgets in this day and age, but don't claim its overall effect is net neutral.
Mass manufacturing of 30k USD/EUR DACs which later damage the environment in poor countries?
You're missing the fundamental difference between single-path and multi-path D-to-A conversion. When program levels drop into the low-audible range --- where we best perceive the "atmospherics" of a room signature / reverb tail / subtle timbre --- single-path DAC THD ratio becomes at least two orders of magnitude worse than when measured at full-scale.
In multi-path architecture, at these same atmospheric levels, we convert using a different DAC core that is operating at full-scale (MSB), where its THD+N ratio is vastly better than any single-path architecture at these lower levels (all DACs today are single-path). This is perceived as a marked improvement in spatial and timbre realism (due to lower THD+N ratios).
Legendary mastering engineer Bob Katz --- an audio skeptic --- did a series of objective measurements, comparing THD of single-path vs. multi-path at low perceptual levels. I encourage you to read his results: https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/imersiv-d1-dac/
The imersiv website is now live, and the FAQ is in development. I'll check in to answer any questions. https://imersiv.com/faq/
IVX
Major Contributor
2 decimal orders means 40db and as I see here the split point of d1 is exactly at -40db, hence, all switching artifacts are placed in that sensitive area?
I don't want to mess with the explanation that THD+N at -70db can't affect reverberations, just remind that only the top-level turntable reaches such a dynamic range level, and rather at 45rpm than 33 1/3. I don't remember if anyone complained about wrong vinyl reverbs. -20-40db - yes, it is the area where the reverb quality may suffer with a cheap DAC with a mediocre THD+N.
However, even at -70dbfs the review shows THD/THD+N = L=.008% R=.132%/L=.01% R=.019%(BTW, never take seriously the result if THD>THD+N, spectruplus is a junk, try REW), and it is the distortions level that I see with ES9039Pro DAC in a STEREO mode(-137db(A)+60=-77db(A) i.e. about .017%*3 = .056%@-70dbfs THD+N unweighted, MONO could be 3 db better). You know, I never believed that 2 or even 10pcs of cheap cars are equal to a single RR. Finally, ES9039Pro has 10x times(1 dec order) better THD+N vs d1 at 0-40dbfs region, most informative and sensitive to audible artifacts, and being a plain high-precision DAC, ES9039Pro has no switching artifacts at all. In other words, d1 is trying to impress us too late, 25 years ago, with 2xCS4398 it could be WOW to compare with a single CS4398.
We are tech people and don't panic a front of specs like "Dynamic Range 170db(we can't measure but we guess)", let's hope that somebody rich enough may like your product, business is business, and god bless you
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Correct. It's in this sensitive area where the ear most perceives atmospheric information, subtle instrument timbres, depth, space, etc.. Every professional who's auditioned this architecture hears a marked improvement, around 40 beta testers (see website comments). The majority of engineers purchased their D-1 beta DACs and are now using them daily.
But, no, there are no "switching artifacts". You'll need to read pretty deep into the patents to find out why.
No guessing. Our broadband self-noise is -146dBu, which is 25dB below the residual broadband self-noise of today's best AP555. We know this because of the Johnson noise equation. You can learn about our actual low-path design parameters, here: https://rb.gy/g9io7h
Multi-path theory is in-use everywhere. Have you heard of HDR photography? The analogy is near perfect. Multiple paths (exposures) are taken at different apertures (levels). Then the most appropriate sections of each photo is intelligently stitched together to make a finished image of vastly greater dynamic resolution. The visual results are stunning.
Sony has recently announced a multi-path CCD that improves video dynamic range by 20dB. The concept is identical to multi-path audio. Read more here: https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/technology/mobile/2-layer-pixel.html
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IVX
Major Contributor
I didn't play with your d1, I make my conclusions from the review only, and I see there that the DR measured at -70dbfs is far from 170db, rather worse than 140db i.e. the same as a single chip solution from ESS. So, I see zero reason to go with cascaded DACs - the same performance at low levels, and 10x worse at high levels + unavoidable artifacts.
BTW, how high is your output impedance, I mean each output XLR pin#2 to GND, and XLR pin#3 to GND?
PS: ESS has 1/4 version of ES9039Pro($50) called ES9039Q2M(about $5), and even that one version outperforms d1 with -70dbfs THD, the noise is higher, but 9039q2m output is a lot cleaner in terms of harmonics. Check this out:
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IVX
Major Contributor
In fact, 130db(A) is completely fine for all sorts of audio applications. Do you know some power-amp with S/N way higher than 130db, so, why do we need a DAC 140db or even "170"?
EJ3
Master Contributor
Yep, I am sure that 100's of thousands of $100K DACs are being dumped into poor countries when something goes wrong with them. Yep, I'm positive of that!
I am a huge proponent of refurbishing & or repurposing what you have (my newest vehicle is a 2004 with 200K miles on it & I am currently rebuilding it's transmission.
Most of my audio gear is from between 1977 & 1996 (mostly bought new) and has been refurbished (and even modded) to keep it from the landfill.
All the poor countries have to do is stop accepting the stuff.
Of course, that might kill how they are making their living.
Perhaps we should stop making throw away junk for the masses. That is where the issue is, in producing things & distilling them down to the bare minimum to get through a 90 day (2 year, 5 year or whatever it is) day warranty. So it can not be economically repaired & must be thrown away.
Good idea, but what about them people in these poor countries that make a living off of this. Perhaps you need a plan that includes them. Let us know when you figure it out, OK?
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