Neumann KH120 II

[teashea]

Don't overestiamte the ability of what we can hear reliable! We don't have a RELIABLE hearing memory, you always have to do A/B with short switching times. 30cm difference in the room can influence low frequency response more as a different tuning. I build complete prototypes to A/B different chassis/membran materials - it's a lot of work to do this properly.

My aproach - first try to avoid as many mistakes as possible in the design phase. Then make it as linear (or sounded if wanted) in all directions as possible (with a little lf boost mostly). This is already a good sounding speaker. And THEN check it in a listening test (doesn't make sense earlier) - always with a reference speaker cause you get used to the sound quickly.

And this brings us back to the KH120ii - it will be my new reference speaker! It mus not be perfect for this use but needs good linearity and I need to know the behaviour of it so I have a steady reference. And the version ii is for sure an upgrade for this use, will do again for the next 10-15 years.

Seems like a great monitor. I am interested in seeing Amir's test results. I suspect it will be almost exactly like a KH150 minus a little bass extension. And that is saying a lot. The KH150 may be the best monitor in the world. (flattest frequency response with lowest distortion).

 

[teashea]

If we ignore the higher SPL, I wonder how much difference there is between the KH150 and the KH120II.

More specifically (but not restricted to that), how much of a difference will the bass make, the 150 goes down to 39, the 120II to 44 Hz. I can relate to that in piano notes, but how much difference will it make in practice when listening to music?

You raise a valid question. I have two pairs of KH150 (and two pairs of KH120 A's). I am seriously considering purchasing a pair of KH120 II's. I suspect that, except for the bass extension, they measure almost exactly like the KH150's - which is saying a lot.

 

[teashea]

I'm not sure if I like KH750. I would prefer some other SUB as Arendal for example. And SPL is only one parameter, low frequency reach is another one.

The KH750 is superlative. Why pair Neumann monitors with some other sub that is not designed to work with them?

 

[teashea]

It's a compact subwoofer intended for near-field use to complement their near-field smaller monitors, and so it's pretty good for the intended purpose.

An excellent point. Neumann makes studio monitors. That is their purpose. Other uses are collateral.

 

[AgentWet]

The KH750 is superlative. Why pair Neumann monitors with some other sub that is not designed to work with them?

I answered in previous posts already. So again: Why? Firstly because of extreme distortion. I don't want to go little bit lower and get +/- 10% distortion.
I'm not sure if I want to pay this money for KH750 when I can buy almost perfect SUB for the same money from other company. I know MA1...

 

[AgentWet]

An excellent point. Neumann makes studio monitors. That is their purpose. Other uses are collateral.

I don't care how they call them. I'm interesting how they sound only. But if I will buy them, I will listen them from 2.0 to 2.3m distance.

 

[ernestcarl]

I answered in previous posts already. So again: Why? Firstly because of extreme distortion. I don't want to go little bit lower and get +/- 10% distortion.
I'm not sure if I want to pay this money for KH750 when I can buy almost perfect SUB for the same money from other company. I know MA1...

Yep, for folks who know how to integrate a sub(s) manually, it definitely is possible to get great results by eschewing the more expensive/smaller KH750.

 

[thecheapseats]

Yep, for folks who know how to integrate a sub(s) manually, it definitely is possible to get great results by eschewing the more expensive/smaller KH750.

yes, it can be done... when I installed my first pair of k+h monitors - subwoofers weren't manufactured by k+h and were not mfg'd by them for a number of years...

so when considering subs a few years later - I did a lot of homework and asking around - and put together a third-party solution (amps/xovers/sub-cabs)... over the years as each successive newer model of k+h/Neumann monitors were replaced (subs-sys tweaked a bit each time) - have been running that same sub solution ever since...

I'd like to have an excuse to do the whole MA-1 thing (curiosity, mostly), but what I have still integrates well for what I do...

 

[IamJF]

Will I be taking advantage of the MA1 room correction? My room conditions are what they are, I'll not be adding more treatment other than more shelves, books and records/cds, much better value to me personally. So then we are talking about taming the room peaks in bass that I already am able to do by ear and with help of a non-calibrated microphone of a field recorder I happen to own: it's not that hard nor needs to be that precise. If I were to add the KH 750 to actually fill in the gaps in the room response and sculpt out the low end, then I might value the M1 more. All my audio sources also go through the computer audio interface so whatever correction I do, being done inside the speaker DSP would be a nice-to-have but not a must.

Looking at your setup I would expect a BIG improvement and the invest in the mic should be totally worth it.

I did a setup for my bass player. His room is treated good around the listening area but the rest is pretty bad. The setup wents from "nice sounding" to "reliable and realistic" with a proper MA1 setup. That's a lot for 300 bucks!

 

[IamJF]

I don't care how they call them. I'm interesting how they sound only. But if I will buy them, I will listen them from 2.0 to 2.3m distance.

You should propably listen to the subs then. Try the measurement system and compare. We did

The best THD behaviour of a subwoofer would be achieved with a very high Q resonator design. Bandpass with narrow bandwith. You could get a lot of SPL with low THD.
Do you think this would sound good?

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

No, its glass reinforced composite material.
Source: https://assets.kef.com/documents/reference/KEF_Blade_Ref_Meta_Tech_Paper.pdf

5:17
Oh right wtf
The metas are made from the same thing i guess


Well, the blades meta measures stupidly god like... that material apparently works very well despite his look.

 

[nat1]

The KH750 is superlative. Why pair Neumann monitors with some other sub that is not designed to work with them?

Most studio subwoofers but especially Neumann and Genelec ones are a complete joke for the asking price, that's why.

 

[teashea]

I don't care how they call them. I'm interesting how they sound only. But if I will buy them, I will listen them from 2.0 to 2.3m distance.

That distance is within the Neumann recommendations. Those recommendations are not pulled out of a hat. They are determined by the Neumann audio engineers - who I suspect have some expertise.

 

[AgentWet]

That distance is within the Neumann recommendations. Those recommendations are not pulled out of a hat. They are determined by the Neumann audio engineers - who I suspect have some expertise.

That's nice from you, that you answer almost all my comments without asking you, even when everything is clear. I know all Neumanns numbers and measurements and recommendations, don't worry. Interesting also is, that you didn't answer my only question for you in next thread about KH150 from this Tuesday...

 

[AgentWet]

After all it's a closed 10" ... I have 6 closed 10" in my home cinema ;-) (SingleBassArray)

@AgentWet All subs have high THD! The ear is not very sensitive in that area, some K3 is even not bad cause it sounds "snappy, tight". So you can easily take the 10% curve and even get some higher peaks out of it.
Compare to other brands - when they show realistic measurements. 10% is quickly reached.

Reflex enclosures show significant less THD around the tuning frequency cause the resonator helps in this area. But do you think it sounds better? You need to know the impact of measurements. A lot.

It's funny. Here in ASR almost everybody advocate only measurements and that there is no room for feelings and listening experience. ASR rule Nr. 1 is that only good measuring speaker can soud good. And when I posted Neumanns own measurements with horrible distortion numbers, you are telling me, that it's OK.
I know that in lower frequencies human hearing is less sensitive for HD, but all have some limits. Higher harmonics are most hearable than lower, but even 2nd and 3rd harmonics must be under 3% max in lowest octave. And 4th, 5th under 0,3-0,5%. I'm not a scientist and I have to use only available informations and my own brain. And with that if I have to spend about $2000-3000 for SUB I want to get best possible quality. I'm not a bass head and I don't need disturb my neighbours with 120db, but I want low distortion as possible and I want fast transients and freedom with placement and endless settings possibilities. (phase, EQ, slope, delay,...) I want only closed SUB with low group delay if I will buy one.

Here are some available measurements:

 

[Trell]

It's funny. Here in ASR almost everybody advocate only measurements and that there is no room for feelings and listening experience. ASR rule Nr. 1 is that only good measuring speaker can soud good.

Nope, not at all. You’re a new member but if you read some threads you’ll see that’s not the case.

 

[AgentWet]

Nope, not at all. You’re a new member but if you read some threads you’ll see that’s not the case.

I hope so.

 

[teashea]

That's nice from you, that you answer almost all my comments without asking you, even when everything is clear. I know all Neumanns numbers and measurements and recommendations, don't worry. Interesting also is, that you didn't answer my only question for you in next thread about KH150 from this Tuesday...

What?

 

[AgentWet]

What?

I would like to help you but I don’t know how. Tuesday is the 2nd day of the week and KH150 is one of your monitors and question is one way to get the answer.

 

[teashea]

I would like to help you but I don’t know how. Tuesday is the 2nd day of the week and KH150 is one of your monitors and question is one way to get the answer.

what?