Neumann KH120 II

[DJBonoBobo]

Wouldn't this whole darker/brighter thing be something that could easily resolved with GLM/EQ?

I don't know, but i am sure i could live with a 8351 if i were forced to.
It was just a first impression, not an elaborate test. I don't say the Genelecs are bad, maybe i was just used to the Neumann.

 

[J-B]

I'm totally capable of it
Measurements are important but they don't tell the whole story

Are you sure?
Why are you constantly asking questions and making new threads about Genelec vs Neumann then?
This for months and months already.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Are you sure?
Why are you constantly asking questions and making new threads about Genelec vs Neumann then?
This for months and months already.

Where's the contradiction ?

 

[Kosimo]

It would be very nice a review from @amirm
I am also really curious to see the teardown. For instance to verify that caps are improved with respect to the Capxon ones found in KH80 on teardown...
KH120A internally is very well built and no criticized components were found. Is this the case also with KH120 Mark 2?

 

[RobL]

Okay. No, they don't sound so different in general. I take that back. Where they really sound different though is voices. They seem much closer with more body on the Neumanns. Like you can reach out and touch the singer. With my Genelecs they always sound kind of distant and "ghostly" (sorry for my horrible sound descriptions). You definitely often feel closer to the music with the Neumanns, BUT especially with instrumentals sometimes I couldn't hear ANY difference between them. If I didn't know what speaker was playing I wouldn't be able to tell even when I sit just 1 meter away.
I don't think the Genelecs sound brighter. I compared the old KH 120 once before and thought it was darker. Today I didn't think it was.
Genelecs sound softer, the Neumanns more agressive maybe. I think you can hear more high frequency detail with the Genelecs, like reverbs but more midrange detail like in voices or acoustic guitar with the Neumanns. And again, sometimes it's damn hard to hear a difference at all. Really depends on the material you listen to.
Switching back and forth between the two sometimes the Genelecs are a bit boring, but incredibly clean. Neumanns sometimes dirtier but maybe more fun.
Making a decision between the two will really be a hard job. Considering the price difference the Neumanns would be the clear winner.

Do you think the differences you hear are simply the result of the extra LF extension of the KH120ii ?

 

[Rednaxela]

It would be very nice a review from @amirm
I am also really curious to see the teardown. For instance to verify that caps are improved with respect to the Capxon ones found in KH80 on teardown...
KH120A internally is very well built and no criticized components were found. Is this the case also with KH120 Mark 2?

Criticized by whom?

 

[3125b]

Has anybody calculated a preference score for these yet? Full measurements are available on Neumanns website.
Distortion/SPL performance look really good for such tiny speakers too.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Has anybody calculated a preference score for these yet? Full measurements are available on Neumanns website.
Distortion/SPL performance look really good for such tiny speakers too.

I don't think they posted full spinorama data needed for calculating a score, or am i wrong?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Just quick.... Oh. Yes. They sound very different. It's that "in your face" Neumann sound. They look good, but I think the painting is better on the Genelecs. Still, they have a quality look.
I'll write more later. Have to get use to them a bit.

View attachment 281568View attachment 281569View attachment 281570

Other than the tonality
Bass and soundstage is also the same on both ?

 

[test1223]

I would only suggest to also switch the Neumann plot origin and version to NFS (Klippel) and not misc. for a more apples to apples comparison.

The Neumann (NFS (Klippel)) measurements have a lower resolution and show a difference in the bass peak but in all other aspects there are no major differences. So why you should use the Neumann (NFS (Klippel)) measurements?

 

[IamJF]

Okay. No, they don't sound so different in general. I take that back. Where they really sound different though is voices. They seem much closer with more body on the Neumanns. Like you can reach out and touch the singer. With my Genelecs they always sound kind of distant and "ghostly" (sorry for my horrible sound descriptions). You definitely often feel closer to the music with the Neumanns, BUT especially with instrumentals sometimes I couldn't hear ANY difference between them. If I didn't know what speaker was playing I wouldn't be able to tell even when I sit just 1 meter away.
I don't think the Genelecs sound brighter. I compared the old KH 120 once before and thought it was darker. Today I didn't think it was.
Genelecs sound softer, the Neumanns more agressive maybe. I think you can hear more high frequency detail with the Genelecs, like reverbs but more midrange detail like in voices or acoustic guitar with the Neumanns. And again, sometimes it's damn hard to hear a difference at all. Really depends on the material you listen to.
Switching back and forth between the two sometimes the Genelecs are a bit boring, but incredibly clean. Neumanns sometimes dirtier but maybe more fun.
Making a decision between the two will really be a hard job. Considering the price difference the Neumanns would be the clear winner.

Oh wow - when they can hold up to the Genelec Ones that's way more as I expected. These Genelecs are one of the most faultless speakers I know. Not particularly exciting - but a great tool and reference.

I used the KH120 for quite a while and as reference for my listening comparisons and my own developments. And detected a little "unprecise" midrange area which bugged me (KH80 doesn't have that btw). Looking forward if the KH120ii has solved that.
Hope I find time in the evening to do a proper comparison ... ;-)

 

[Pearljam5000]

Oh wow - when they can hold up to the Genelec Ones that's way more as I expected. These Genelecs are one of the most faultless speakers I know. Not particularly exciting - but a great tool and reference.

I used the KH120 for quite a while and as reference for my listening comparisons and my own developments. And detected a little "unprecise" midrange area which bugged me (KH80 doesn't have that btw). Looking forward if the KH120ii has solved that.
Hope I find time in the evening to do a proper comparison ... ;-)

View attachment 281749

Waiting for the impressions

 

[ernestcarl]

The Neumann (NFS (Klippel)) measurements have a lower resolution and show a difference in the bass peak but in all other aspects there are no major differences. So why you should use the Neumann (NFS (Klippel)) measurements?

Original graphs extracted from were smaller and not necessarily “lower resolution”. Feel free to use whatever spinorama source data you wish.

 

[teashea]

I was considering the 8331s and ultimately went with KH 150s for the additional bass extension and volume, plus the fact that the Genelecs would have been nearly twice the cost. I agree that voice reproduction on the Neumanns is outstanding in a "I'm not sure how this gets better" sort of way. Anyway, do you find that the coaxial offers any audible advantages in nearfield use?

Consider that the measurements by Amir are nearfield and look at the results.

 

[IamJF]

So did my first, short listening session. Setup in my studio room with a LOT of absorption (also my measurement room). Both connected with analog input, EQ to linear.

What should I say - I didn't expect that much difference! The KH120ii is in nearly every regard a step up.
Especially the phantom center is extremely good and stereo image is very wide. Midrange is instant more natural. Low frequencies are deeper and better balanced. It plays even better as "one unit" (and the original was not bad at all in this regard). Pretty cool package - this will be the new reference at that price point.

I only dislike 2 things.
*) The switches! They are mushy without clear clicks and positions. As you fiddle around during setup behind the speakers without looking at it ... it's a pain.
*) Highest Frequencies are a little more "relaxed" with the KH120. Maybe cause of the extra A/D D/A conversion (know this from my Hypex modules, sound a little better on digital in), maybe cause the tweeter is brand new out of the box. Will need more tests for this. But the rest of the benefits are way stronger, no question what to prefer.

The housing is leightweigt and the surface feels like easiely scratched. But there are no obvious resonances an no - metal is NOT a great material for speaker enclosures! It takes some effort to keep it resonant free - that's probably the reason they decided to change that.

Looking forward if somebody has the chance to compare to a KH150! I can imagine these match pretty well from what you read in tests.

Next step testing the digital input and then do the measurement routine ...

 

[Pearljam5000]

Consider that the measurements by Amir are nearfield and look at the results.

Also a must is to listen both before deciding

 

[DJBonoBobo]

So did my first, short listening session. Setup in my studio room with a LOT of absorption (also my measurement room). Both connected with analog input, EQ to linear.

What should I say - I didn't expect that much difference! The KH120ii is in nearly every regard a step up.
Especially the phantom center is extremely good and stereo image is very wide. Midrange is instant more natural. Low frequencies are deeper and better balanced. It plays even better as "one unit" (and the original was not bad at all in this regard). Pretty cool package - this will be the new reference at that price point.

I only dislike 2 things.
*) The switches! They are mushy without clear clicks and positions. As you fiddle around during setup behind the speakers without looking at it ... it's a pain.
*) Highest Frequencies are a little more "relaxed" with the KH120. Maybe cause of the extra A/D D/A conversion (know this from my Hypex modules, sound a little better on digital in), maybe cause the tweeter is brand new out of the box. Will need more tests for this. But the rest of the benefits are way stronger, no question what to prefer.

The housing is leightweigt and the surface feels like easiely scratched. But there are no obvious resonances an no - metal is NOT a great material for speaker enclosures! It takes some effort to keep it resonant free - that's probably the reason they decided to change that.

View attachment 281884

Looking forward if somebody has the chance to compare to a KH150! I can imagine these match pretty well from what you read in tests.

Next step testing the digital input and then do the measurement routine ...

I read somewhere that there is some technical reason for the heavily damped switches. I forgot what it was, but AFAIK it's something they did on purpose. Not worse quality or so. Maybe this makes it easier to tolerate.

Edit: found the source, some german review of the KH150: https://www.bonedo.de/artikel/neumann-kh-150-test/2/

 

[IamJF]

They loosen a bit when switching a lot. The "swith 20x fast from min to max" methode to "clean" old switches works. The explanaition in your link seems reasonable and the downside is not huge - at least it's not a mistake of my models.

And yes - listening is still important. I'm a big "measurement" guy and proper measurements tell you a lot about a speaker. But I didn't expect the change in stage and phantom mid between KH120 and KH120ii - which is obvious in a short listening comparison with a good setup. Listening and fine tuning is always the last step when designing a new speaker.
Nevertheless - I bought the KH120ii without listening. The digital imput, measurement system and new designed 5" driver in combination with the measurements of the manufacturer was enough to be confident it's enough step up to my old model. Good that this estimation did work out ;-)

 

[lowkeyoperations]

Exactly true. Measurements aren’t developed to a point where they can tell you everything about a speaker.

For example, I don’t think there are any measurements that would tell you about the stage and phantom changes you heard.

I wouldn’t say ‘listening and fine tuning are always the last step’ when designing. I’d say listening, measuring and fine tuning are an ongoing process throughout the design process.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

What's wrong with plastic?
Kef Blades are made of it and they are fine.

since when it's plastic? as i know is mdf..