My Kingdom For A Remote Volume Knob! can this be made?

[mglobe]

I (and others) am fine with Bluetooth. My volume control is a software control running on a raspberry pi, so Bluetooth directly to the pi would be the most "elegant" solution.
Additional benefit of Bluetooth, that I believe is relevant for a circular knob, is the lack of directionality (not to have to point to the receiver).
I also have a flirc connected to the pi, so ir would also do, but I would prefer Bluetooth.
PS: the "spin" in post #45 does output ir

Looks like it’s doable if you can code it. For those who want the Dial to control AV hardware I also assume that it’s possible to have a Rpi receive Bt and emit remote ir codes, again if you cans do the the coding.

Controlling Raspberry Pi with Surface Dial

Last week, I got a Surface Dial from Riza Marhaban because the device looks cool. Microsoft always produces cool products such as the Zune music player, Windows Mobile, Nokia Lumia phone, etc. Howe…

cuteprogramming.wordpress.com

 

[Roland68]

A really stupid question.
If it's just a knob for volume control, couldn't you just use a rotary encoder with a small arduino project that, depending on the direction of rotation, gives an impulse to the +/- control of the original remote control or a third-party remote control? Other functions could also be brought out as buttons or made available via the rotary knob with a pushbutton function (higher programming effort).
Then as a simple DIY hack you would have a solution for a volume knob for almost every remote control.

 

[supercargo]

If it's just a knob for volume control

In essence, yes, just a knob. But also many details to work out to reach OP's desired level of refinement. There's the industrial design of the package (materials, tactile feel like weighting, etc), some battery solution and power management (probably not a stretch for someone familiar with electronic design, but out-of-the-box hacking with an Arduino could easily produce a device which drains a AAA battery in a week or less). Then on the software integration front you need to get acceleration implemented properly and the IR codes right. I've done this sort of hacking, it isn't "hard" per se, but it is also a bit fidgety to get it to work well.

Anyway, I sense that the point of the exercise isn't just to figure out how to replace volume buttons on a remote with a spinner, but to have an refined and elegant implementation that "just works" from the user's point of view.

Speaking of power, it just occurred to me that the kinetic energy produced by the action of turning the knob is probably sufficient to power the IR emitters. Maybe combined with a small / disguised PV cell to keep some capacitors topped up, you could probably build a completely battery-less vampirically powered knob. On the other hand, IR remote batteries usually last years, so maybe not worth it.

 

[mglobe]

...

Anyway, I sense that the point of the exercise isn't just to figure out how to replace volume buttons on a remote with a spinner, but to have an refined and elegant implementation that "just works" from the user's point of view.

...

Exactly. So far RooDial fits that description, but it is limited to controlling the volume via Roon. For those who want to control the volume on IR controlled devices, there's no "just works" solution that I've seen.

 

[MattHooper]

In essence, yes, just a knob. But also many details to work out to reach OP's desired level of refinement. There's the industrial design of the package (materials, tactile feel like weighting, etc), some battery solution and power management (probably not a stretch for someone familiar with electronic design, but out-of-the-box hacking with an Arduino could easily produce a device which drains a AAA battery in a week or less). Then on the software integration front you need to get acceleration implemented properly and the IR codes right. I've done this sort of hacking, it isn't "hard" per se, but it is also a bit fidgety to get it to work well.

Anyway, I sense that the point of the exercise isn't just to figure out how to replace volume buttons on a remote with a spinner, but to have an refined and elegant implementation that "just works" from the user's point of view.

Speaking of power, it just occurred to me that the kinetic energy produced by the action of turning the knob is probably sufficient to power the IR emitters. Maybe combined with a small / disguised PV cell to keep some capacitors topped up, you could probably build a completely battery-less vampirically powered knob. On the other hand, IR remote batteries usually last years, so maybe not worth it.

Yes, you've nailed it!

I'd say the biggest unknown at this point with regard to the OmniArc remote I'm looking at is: How well will the IR volume commands of my remotes translate to the rotary action of the knob? I have no idea how well it will track the action, if the volume will seem to move to fast or too slowly when turning the dial. I don't know if anyone here has experience that could be enlightening on this issue?

 

[bogart]

Exactly. So far RooDial fits that description, but it is limited to controlling the volume via Roon. For those who want to control the volume on IR controlled devices, there's no "just works" solution that I've seen.

I'm not fully steeped in this thread, but between the home automation mentions, native control, and IR requirements I was reminded of something from long ago.

10+ years ago, Global Cache products were *the* key to getting home control beyond my PC and IP control devices.
Something like this guy would be a possibility. You'd need your rotary knob device to pair to something, then for that to be the agent to decide what to do with it. It's likely that the hard part remains the package-it-up-neatly bit, but if you already have home control software running this could be the last mile.

 

[MattHooper]

Gotta say that the Adams folks have been extremely accommodating. At least via email, very customer-oriented.

I'm sorry I can't follow up immediately regarding this remote. If I could I'd order the remote right now, but as it happens it's tax time for me - gotta see what type of play money I have left after feeding The Government.

 

[Killingbeans]

Get ready...

....750 Euros for the standard remote. Plus some extra for custom programming it specifically for my devices.

(I figure I can pull my kid out of university and send him to a local trade college so I can afford it. Education is overrated anyway...)

Wow... I was thinking about starting production of a similar product, but was unsure whether I'd be able to make a profit. Guess I don't have to worry

 

[MattHooper]

Wow... I was thinking about starting production of a similar product, but was unsure whether I'd be able to make a profit. Guess I don't have to worry

I encourage you to do it!

 

[MCH]

Guys, you need to check this out!!

I want one, NOW!!

 

[Killingbeans]

It was in post #14

But it's pretty cool. I wonder if it would be possible to ditch the magnetic rotary encoder, and use a three phase brushless motor as both encoder and haptic feedback.

 

[MCH]

It was in post #14

How could I miss it?
There is a second video in which the guy explains how it works. Very impressive, but this is when I realize I could never build it not even in my craziest dreams....

 

[t_im]

Yes, you've nailed it!

I'd say the biggest unknown at this point with regard to the OmniArc remote I'm looking at is: How well will the IR volume commands of my remotes translate to the rotary action of the knob? I have no idea how well it will track the action, if the volume will seem to move to fast or too slowly when turning the dial. I don't know if anyone here has experience that could be enlightening on this issue?

It probably won't work well when you quickly turn the dial...

I've recently built a preamp "box" with an arm board (similar to a raspberry pi 3) and amongst other things a rotary encoder that controls the volume of CamillaDSP. I initially ran into issues where if I sent all the "events" when quickly rotating the encoder's dial I'd then have to wait for 2-3 seconds until the volume would "settle". And that's without even the latency of wireless communication (wi-fi or infrared) as the rotary encoder is wired to the same board CamillaDSP is running on.
The solution I came with was to send the first "volume event" to CamillaDSP, then send any "intermediate" event every X milliseconds, then send the final value. That ended up working quite well, closely tracking the encoder dial's movement. However that means you have to store and "aggregate" relative increments - ie. if you quickly rotated the dial reading absolute values like -3, -4, -5, -6, -7 (= 5 "clicks" counterclockwise - starting from -3 because that's what was stored the last time someone rotated the dial), you'd then only send the relative increments to CamillaDSP, eg. -1, -3, -1 (where in that case -1 is the first event/click, then the dial was rotated too quickly so the algorithm aggregated 3 consecutive "clicks" that happened within X milliseconds and eventually sent -3, then the person rotating the dial slowed and -1 was sent.).

With infrared where you only have vol up and vol down you wouldn't be able to send a volume instruction like "volume down by 5 increments"; instead you'd have to send a long series of -1s. Add to this the latency of infrared (no idea what that'd amount to though - both for signal processing and waiting before sending a consecutive event), potential range problems (= missed/skipped events) and you'd probably swear at your remote more often than not.

Solutions: rotate slowly ; or put another preamp/interface before your preamps to manage the volume with something better than infrared (eg. BT or Wi-Fi), leaving your preamp(s) at max vol and ditch your infrared remotes. Wiring would be "transparent" if your interface has enough in/out channels (or enough "out" channels if your sources are digital).
Side note: I used to be an advocate of "the less gear in the signal path the better" but with DACs nowadays exhibiting such SINAD there's really no issue (well, except maybe space consideration, power consumption, and making the setup a bit more complex).
Hope this helps...

 

[MattHooper]

It probably won't work well when you quickly turn the dial...

I've recently built a preamp "box" with an arm board (similar to a raspberry pi 3) and amongst other things a rotary encoder that controls the volume of CamillaDSP. I initially ran into issues where if I sent all the "events" when quickly rotating the encoder's dial I'd then have to wait for 2-3 seconds until the volume would "settle". And that's without even the latency of wireless communication (wi-fi or infrared) as the rotary encoder is wired to the same board CamillaDSP is running on.
The solution I came with was to send the first "volume event" to CamillaDSP, then send any "intermediate" event every X milliseconds, then send the final value. That ended up working quite well, closely tracking the encoder dial's movement. However that means you have to store and "aggregate" relative increments - ie. if you quickly rotated the dial reading absolute values like -3, -4, -5, -6, -7 (= 5 "clicks" counterclockwise - starting from -3 because that's what was stored the last time someone rotated the dial), you'd then only send the relative increments to CamillaDSP, eg. -1, -3, -1 (where in that case -1 is the first event/click, then the dial was rotated too quickly so the algorithm aggregated 3 consecutive "clicks" that happened within X milliseconds and eventually sent -3, then the person rotating the dial slowed and -1 was sent.).

With infrared where you only have vol up and vol down you wouldn't be able to send a volume instruction like "volume down by 5 increments"; instead you'd have to send a long series of -1s. Add to this the latency of infrared (no idea what that'd amount to though - both for signal processing and waiting before sending a consecutive event), potential range problems (= missed/skipped events) and you'd probably swear at your remote more often than not.

Solutions: rotate slowly ; or put another preamp/interface before your preamps to manage the volume with something better than infrared (eg. BT or Wi-Fi), leaving your preamp(s) at max vol and ditch your infrared remotes. Wiring would be "transparent" if your interface has enough in/out channels (or enough "out" channels if your sources are digital).
Side note: I used to be an advocate of "the less gear in the signal path the better" but with DACs nowadays exhibiting such SINAD there's really no issue (well, except maybe space consideration, power consumption, and making the setup a bit more complex).
Hope this helps...

Uh oh.

I'd missed this post (thanks!).

Guess I'll have to see how it goes. The company building me the remote seems very willing to please and if anything isn't up to snuff when I get it, they'll try to adjust. They already use this particular IR remote volume knob for their own preamps, so I would presume they overcame any annoying latency problems.
Hopefully it will work in my case.

 

[anotherhobby]

If someone can integrate this Hue Tap Dial to Infrared, that would be the end of the game for me. I need infrared because I want to control the volume from preamp. I used to control volume with Symfinisk very nicely when I had Sonos Port, but I see a lot more benefit to control not from streamer but from preamp. I like to set the streamer to fix level and like to see the volume level shown on my preamp.

Hue Tap dial switch | Philips Hue EN-CA

Control up to three Rooms or a Zone with each individual button of the Tap dial switch, available in black or white. Turn the dial to dim and brighten the lights. Mount it to the wall, place it on a magnetic surface, or use it as a remote control.

www.philips-hue.com

I believe hue works on ZigBee same as symfonisk...

If you have the skills, you can do this with zigbee2mqtt. They have a search on the site and instructions available for over 2500 devices that use zigbee. However, it's a can of worms if you aren't already into home automation and don't have a platform like home assistant that works with zigbee2mqtt. Also, volume may be challenging, because you have zigbee delay as well as network delay (mqtt is over tcp).

I use home assistant extensively to control my AV. As an example, I have a MantelMount that my TV is on that lowers it down 30" in front of the fire place. I have a window sensor (thru zigbee2mqtt) on the MantelMount so home assistant knows if it's up or down. When I lower it, HA turns on my Sony TV, my Denon AVR, and sets the input on the Denon to my Apple TV. If I turn on my Playstation, then Home Assistant detects that and switches inputs for me. Same goes for detection methods for other sources. With my old Vizio TV I even had it enable low latency gaming mode on my TV, but I don't need to do that anymore. If I turn off the PlayStation it detects that and it'll switch back to the AppleTV. If I put the TV back up on the wall, it powers everything off. It can even tell when I turn on my turn table and switches inputs to that. By responding to human actions as intent instead of button presses, I was able to remove every single remote from my chair space except the AppleTV one. I have been able to automate every single device that matters in my AV chain with HA. Some of these things I have had to write on my own in python, others have had stuff avaialable. Anyway, feel free to go down the rabbit hole, just make sure you have the time and interest. I can also control most of my system using Siri or HomeKit, because I export a ton of custom commands and actions thru Home Assistant to Home Kit.

 

[Keith_W]

Ever since my old Philips Pronto died and Philips abandoned the project, I have been looking for a suitable replacement. Nobody has made one.

So this thread got me thinking of making my own. I have basic machining and electronics skills, but no programming skills. So I could actually build the remote of my dreams, but not write the software to make it run! Maybe the collective wisdom of ASR should be able to cobble together a remote? I would be open to the idea of building a few prototypes (using hardware specified by ASR members) and sending it out to people who know how to program.

 

[MCH]

If you have the skills, you can do this with zigbee2mqtt. They have a search on the site and instructions available for over 2500 devices that use zigbee. However, it's a can of worms if you aren't already into home automation and don't have a platform like home assistant that works with zigbee2mqtt. Also, volume may be challenging, because you have zigbee delay as well as network delay (mqtt is over tcp).

I use home assistant extensively to control my AV. As an example, I have a MantelMount that my TV is on that lowers it down 30" in front of the fire place. I have a window sensor (thru zigbee2mqtt) on the MantelMount so home assistant knows if it's up or down. When I lower it, HA turns on my Sony TV, my Denon AVR, and sets the input on the Denon to my Apple TV. If I turn on my Playstation, then Home Assistant detects that and switches inputs for me. Same goes for detection methods for other sources. With my old Vizio TV I even had it enable low latency gaming mode on my TV, but I don't need to do that anymore. If I turn off the PlayStation it detects that and it'll switch back to the AppleTV. If I put the TV back up on the wall, it powers everything off. It can even tell when I turn on my turn table and switches inputs to that. By responding to human actions as intent instead of button presses, I was able to remove every single remote from my chair space except the AppleTV one. I have been able to automate every single device that matters in my AV chain with HA. Some of these things I have had to write on my own in python, others have had stuff avaialable. Anyway, feel free to go down the rabbit hole, just make sure you have the time and interest. I can also control most of my system using Siri or HomeKit, because I export a ton of custom commands and actions thru Home Assistant to Home Kit.

Yes, I have been thinking of ZigBee2mqtt since this discussion here and a conversation with @t_im . In my case (volume controlled by raspberry pi running camilladsp), in theory, one could buy a cc2531 USB stick for a couple of euros and then either a Ikea symfonisk or the knob linked below, and for someone that knows a bit of python it shouldn't be too difficult. Unfortunately I am not there yet but the idea is in the back of my mind.

There are also many instructions in the internet to do it with a rotary encoder and an Arduino microcontroller, and it seems to have very little delay. But in this case you need to build your own case for the knob, power the Arduino somehow.... I believe the best for this application is a commercial ZigBee readymade knob. There aren't many and they tend to be ugly, but they are cheap and available.

MOES ZigBee Wireless Smart Knob Switch Button, Wireless Scene Dimmer Switch, Tuya ZigBee Hub Required, Battery Included https://amzn.eu/d/3P8Y3y3

Example of cc2531:
CC2531 ZigBee USB Transceiver with Current Firmware https://amzn.eu/d/44jb35p

 

[MCH]

Ever since my old Philips Pronto died and Philips abandoned the project, I have been looking for a suitable replacement. Nobody has made one.

So this thread got me thinking of making my own. I have basic machining and electronics skills, but no programming skills. So I could actually build the remote of my dreams, but not write the software to make it run! Maybe the collective wisdom of ASR should be able to cobble together a remote? I would be open to the idea of building a few prototypes (using hardware specified by ASR members) and sending it out to people who know how to program.

The difficulty of this, and you can see it just reading this thread, is that everyone here has different needs. Some need IR to control their preamps, some want Bluetooth to control their apps, some need wifi.... Impossible to build a one fits all solution I think....

 

[t_im]

Guess I'll have to see how it goes. The company building me the remote seems very willing to please and if anything isn't up to snuff when I get it, they'll try to adjust. They already use this particular IR remote volume knob for their own preamps, so I would presume they overcame any annoying latency problems.

I'm quite curious about the result - please let me/us once you get your remote ! Indeed, it really all boils down to infrared latency (hardware/signal wise + proper implementation on the preamps and remote) - it could actually work much better than what I've described in my pessimistic post

 

[sq225917]

Ideally we want a dial that comes with an app that let's you assign remote control codes to the dial's rotate and button functions.

Just a blank pallet and you tell it what each means. Just like the old Harmony remotes.

All we really need is rotate for vol, top button press for input select, and then maybe north east south west tilt presses for additional button controls.