My dongle search rabbit hole

[OK1]

Been looking at IEMs, putting myself under no pressure to impulse buy, and discovering - oh - its another rabbit hole, with products being modified after initially glowing reviews, (and that whole Kz multidriver saga), so in some cases you wonder what you'll get. I.e a certain lack of consistency from some manufacturers. I'll be checking the reviews here.

My initial thoughts are to get three inears - 1. cheapie less than $10, 2. One in the $20 to $50 bracket - single or double dynamic driver, and 3. A planar magnetic in the $60 or less range. I have also become aware that this rabbit role can sink several thousand dollar holes in one's pocket. Amazing to think that $5,000+ IEM's exist - what are they made of - moon dust?, or recovered asteroid rock...

 

[OK1]

Apple dongle - US version, arrives sometime next week. I paid $9 on the Apple US web site, and the customs duty/handling charge is £15.98 (approx £16), i,e this cost me about £25, not including the cost of postage, and also a delay of about three weeks, from purchase to anticipated delivery date.

Not sure if I'll ever bother purchasing anything internationally again, unless it's absolutely essential. There's is no deterministic way to compute import charges, on some purchases. Best I just stick to what's available in the UK. So anything from AliExpress is also out of bounds for me.!

 

[OK1]

Yeah it took almost a week after I paid the customs duties and the item had not yet been delivered, and then I got up and visited the Post Office. Apparently some glitch in their computer systems, had not allowed my payment to be properly processed. At my insistence that I had paid, they went ahead to double check their records, and with an apology handed over the item to me.

Yes it has been an experience, almost a month from order date to delivery. But having ordered three different dongles :

1. A fake Samsung which sounded better than my laptop headphone output, but I returned cos it was obviously fake
2. A Samsung dongle direct from Amazon.co.uk, from the Samsung store - dispatched by Amazon, so it has to be genuine. - this definitely sounded better.
3. The original Apple - Designed in California - A2049 - Made in China, ordered from Apple in the US - USB-C to 3.5 mm.

It did not take much of a listen this morning to conclude, the Apple dongle is without a doubt the best - most accurate sounding. It beats the Samsung, and the margin is not small, it just sounds so much more clean and clear and easier to listen to, in the high end.

Some interesting differences from both of the other dongles.

I did not have to disable the HID device, in Windows, with the Apple dongle.
I did not have to swap the channels as I had to with the Samsung dongle.
The Apple dongle does not seem to have as much in the low end as the Samsung dongle, but based on my best judgement, I think the Apple dongle sounds the most natural to me, not over emphasizing anything. In particular, the end of notes on instruments and voices, is tighter with Apple's device, without that extra "space" or "reverb" that I can now hear that the Samsung dongle seemed to add to everything.
The Samsung dongle and the fake Samsung topped out @ 16 bit 48Khz, Apples had proper 24bit support up to 48Khz.
All dongles supported WASAPI Exclusive on Windows.

Definitely I can say - as advanced as the technology of DAC's seems to be in today's world, where all well made devices should sound negligibly different from each other, sorry, it is not so. To my ears, the Apple dongle is significantly better than the Samsung dongle.

I must add this, I am a convert. As long as I can afford it, I will be buying Apple products from now on. I had been a bit of a rebel - a Windows/Microsoft die hard for many many years, and while I never bought anything Apple for myself, I gave Apple products as gifts to a family member -iPad and iPhone.

Recently I bought the 1st Apple product for myself - a 20W USB-C charger, for a Samsung mobile phone.

This dongle is the 2nd Apple product I have bought for myself, and I am extremely impressed.

I do not have any measurements, but I can highly recommend the Apple dongle - USB-C to 3.5 mm. I would expect that they would use similarly high quality conversion in all their other products, such as their other dongle DACs. And their headphones which have in-built DAC's such as the USB-C headphone.

I am seriously impressed. Seriously. Sure it has been quite an effort, to get to this point, but well worth it.

It does give me the impression though, that like with any new venture, there may be a bit of wasted investment - such as having to buy more than one product to be able to personally compare for yourself, in your own environment.

No regrets.

Going forward, I'd like to compare the Apple dongle with the professional tools I own, like the headphone outputs of the EMU 0404USB Audio Interface. That should be enlightening.

I will still go ahead and buy at least one dongle DAC in the $40 to $50 price range, who knows maybe two, so I can compare, and possibly return the worst performer.

But it is such a relief, not having to second guess what I am listening to - and yes - DAC's do not sound the same. I have very concrete evidence. The Apple dongle is far better than the Samsung dongle, far far better.

Using the same headphones, I can easily hear the difference, now I have to go back and listen to everything I have on my reference list again, I am definitely a happy bunny.

EDIT :

Further listening, in my opinion tells me that this is a case of the Emperor's new clothes. I find on much more extensive listening, that the Apple dongle is cutting some corners, I think, which makes it appear to sound better, but in truth it may not be as good, as the Samsung. My revised opinion is in further posts below.

 

[OK1]

I once thought - the most important element should be the transducers - i.e microphones or speakers/headphones, because in theory, they are supposed to be the devices with the most distortion, and where one should place the most effort, in getting the most linear translation from electrical energy to acoustic energy or vice versa.

But I was wrong, I think as much effort must be placed on the ADC/DAC components also. My own journey confirms that these are just as important for critical recordings and listening.

Normally I have to increase the volume of Kind of Blue (Miles Davis), when I'm switching to this after listening to some pop music such as Whitney Houston, which has a higher average loudness, higher by about 8 or more decibels on average. But today, I seem to hear into the Kind of Blue album, through the Apple dongle, without feeling the need to increase the volume. Of course this is anecdotal and subjective, but that is one of my initial reactions to using the Apple dongle. I can definitely hear better.

 

[BDWoody]

But it is such a relief, not having to second guess what I am listening to - and yes - DAC's do not sound the same. I have very concrete evidence. The Apple dongle is far better than the Samsung dongle, far far better.

What evidence is that?

But I was wrong, I think as much effort must be placed on the ADC/DAC components also. My own journey confirms that these are just as important for critical recordings and listening.

Try that same journey again, but with some basic controls. No peeking, levels matched.

Of course this is anecdotal and subjective,

Exactly.

 

[OK1]

What evidence is that?



Try that same journey again, but with some basic controls. No peeking, levels matched.

Exactly.

With headphone based listening, it will take a lot of effort to be accurate with level matching, cos that needs me to acquire a tool to measure this perfectly. And considering the small size of my current headphones - they are earbuds - really small, and the volume coming out of them is so low (until placed in the ear), that positioning any loudness measurement tool, will be prone to error, due to the really small size of these headphones.

I did make the effort to limit the time needed to swap from one dongle to another, to just a few seconds. Keeping everything else identical. From my own listening, the output from the dongles is not exactly the same, but it's within about 2dB - strangely the Samsung dongle sounds a bit louder. I'm using a gain plugin, which helps me perceptively to be more accurate about this level/volume difference.

But in spite of this, the frequency response difference is very obvious to me. between the Samsung dongle and the Apple dongle. I can describe the Apple dongle as drier, more cohesive, slightly crisper, unfortunately I do not have tools to measure this.

I am confident that those who have the tools, will be able to explain these differences a lot better than I can.

I'll go back to view the Julian Krause video, to see if there is any correlation between what I'm hearing and his measurements of the Apple and Samsung dongle.

If I may also say anything, the Apple dongle is properly labelled, while as much as I made every effort to get a genuine Samsung dongle, which came with what to the best of my knowledge was authentic Samsung packaging - which I opened myself, there is not a single label on the Samsung dongle identifying it as a device made by Samsung - now that is telling. Albeit all my efforts on the internet indicate that this is NOT unusual - I have not found any Samsung DAC dongles on the web with any kind of labelling on the device - what I consider a serious omission by Samsung, if there ever was one. The Apple dongle, albeit needing a magnifying glass or macro enlargement via a camera, is clearly labelled as designed by Apple, with a proper product code.

 

[OK1]

I've gone back to the video by Julian Krause on Youtube, and frequency response is pretty much the same between the Apple and Samsung dongles. When I have made more effort to volume match the two dongles, I think my previous observation is consistent with Julian's measurements where the Samsung definitely puts out more power, so it should sound bassier.

When volume matched, as best as I can attempt, I still think the Apple dongle sounds much more clearer to me. I'm trying to find the words - more solid, tangible, real. I'm listening to Whitney Houston's last album - and my well loved single - I look to you - with the Apple dongle, I am listening to Whitney(I am listening to the performer), while with the Samsung, this sounds like I am listening to a recording, and the singer is somewhat removed and distant - veiled.

Same with other vocals - so much more audible, with ease and realistic - like the singer is right there with me, crisp, bobbing my head so much easier, with the Apple dongle.

Then I listen to the Samsung dongle, it sounds even more accurate than the Apple, cos here I seem to be able to hear the compression artefacts on Whitney's voice, and other instruments like the snare drums. almost like the Samsung dongle is more clinical, with a more clinical presentation. It seems as if the Samsung extends the frequency response in both directions - whisper crisp on the highs, and a bit more heft on the lower frequencies. The reverb cues and dynamics in Whitney's voice is more apparent with the Samsung. The Samsung feels more "digital", while the Apple is more "analog" - somewhat more compressed. Listening to the piano on one of the songs, the Samsung presents the piano as clearer, with crisper high frequencies, while the piano is more muffled in the Apple.

Listening to Dua Lipa's Levitating (with my best efforts to volume match), leaves a firm impression that the Apple dongle cheats at the upper and lower end of the frequency spectrum, giving a mid focussed sound. Apple emphasizes the lead vocal, but the other elements in the music suffer. No doubt - the Samsung is more analytical, and when listening on this, the audio is, in my opinion, more dynamic.

I find the Apple presentation somewhat more enjoyable, but I think the Samsung is more accurate, more revealing. Another way to think of this is the old tradition in music studios where they used a Yamaha NS10 for mixing, cos it helped them focus on the mids, and the Apple takes this approach, but the end result is the Apple sounds great but more two dimensional, while the Samsung clearly is more complex.

With Apple the stars - like Whitney, sound like superstars - up front and center dominant in the music. With the Samsung, it knocks down the superstar a peg or two, and any minor flaws are not covered up, the superstar becomes more human. Separation of instruments, stereo width, and bass is definitely better on the Samsung.

So We have options. Enjoyment - choose the Apple dongle. Critical Analytical listening - definitely the Samsung wins here.

I never expected this. A huge surprise. Definitely makes me want to hear something more advanced such as the Moondrop Dawn Pro in the higher price bracket., which measures better than either of the Samsung or Apple dongles.

One important conclusion is that I had thought of purchasing one of these USB-C earbuds with in-built DACS, which connect directly to the USB-C port, but I realise that DACs are not the same, and this imposes a constraint - you are stuck with that DAC's interpretation of the audio. Reminds me of the old debate in Hifi - separates or all in one. Integrated Amp or Stand Alone Amp. The lesson for me now is - keep things separate - DAC + Headphone amp - with distinct headphone as a separate device rather than one device (DAC/Headphone Amp + Headphone).

 

[OK1]

What started this was hearing a difference between the WASAPI driver and the ASIO driver on the onboard headphone DA converter of the Realtek amp/converter on my Dell laptop. I have since, while troubleshooting the performance issues I had been having on the laptop, installed the most recent drivers for this Realtek audio devices, and on a whim, I tested the Apple dongle, Samsung dongle, and the on-board Realtek headphone output.

Tested meaning listened to, making as much of an effort to adjust volumes to listen at about the same volume., on each device.

1. Now the impression that the Apple dongle is hyped in response - scratchy is the final impression, and moreso as I had been listening to the Samsung dongle as my daily driver.

2. The Samsung still sounded great, until I heard the on-board headphone output.

3. The onboard Realtek, further to the installation of updated drivers, no longer had the discernible audible difference between the ASIO and WASAPI drivers, They now sound too close to call, them different, and the Realtek revealed some very clear smearing in the sonics of the Samsung dongle. The Samsung leaning towards a satisfying bass response, but clearly missing something in the higher frequencies, and something is not quite right, the bottom end and the top end are not in sync, almost like a bit of wool has been put over the Samsung.

Thankfully I have not spent the earth on the dongles, but if I has spent over $100, for a DAC, to discover that my on-board headphone on my 2017 laptop sounded indisputably clearer, that would be a shame and a travesty. Huge lesson. Electronic testing of gear is great, insightful and valuable, but it would be wonderful to consider comparative listening, to understand any correlation between the tests and what one is hearing.

I can imagine that teh challenge for AMIR is - he does not keep all the devices he tests. But it would be wonderful if in his comparisons of DAC's using the same source audio, e.g. digital files or same streaming source, he could also give his own subjective opinion of what he is hearing, when comparing the DAC on test, with a well known reference which he keeps with him, for this purpose.

My own experience is instructive - using the same source audio and the same pair of headphones, it is night and day easy to tell the difference between three inexpensive but supposedly well made DACs. In theory, many would say, this should be impossible, since all modern DACs made in the most recent 10 years or thereabouts, should be close enough to each other in the end result as to be negligible. My own experience however limited, tells me a completely different story. They do not sound the same.

 

[AdamG]

This is my all time favorite because it has 20 slot EQ/PEQ. With experimentation it allows you to squeeze the best possible persolized sound profile out of all of your IEM’s/Headphones. It opened a whole new world of sound possibilities that previously alluded. I have two of them now.

Qudelix-5K Bluetooth DAC & Headphone Amp

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Qudelix-5K USB DAC and balanced headphone amplifier with Bluetooth receiver. I purchased this myself but a member kindly donated one third of the cost. The Qudelix 5K costs US $110 on Amazon including shipping. The Qudelix comes in a nice...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[OK1]

This is my all time favorite because it has 20 slot EQ/PEQ. With experimentation it allows you to squeeze the best possible persolized sound profile out of all of your IEM’s/Headphones. It opened a whole new world of sound possibilities that previously alluded. I have two of them now.

Qudelix-5K Bluetooth DAC & Headphone Amp

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Qudelix-5K USB DAC and balanced headphone amplifier with Bluetooth receiver. I purchased this myself but a member kindly donated one third of the cost. The Qudelix 5K costs US $110 on Amazon including shipping. The Qudelix comes in a nice...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thank you.

 

[OK1]

This is my all time favorite because it has 20 slot EQ/PEQ. With experimentation it allows you to squeeze the best possible persolized sound profile out of all of your IEM’s/Headphones. It opened a whole new world of sound possibilities that previously alluded. I have two of them now.

Qudelix-5K Bluetooth DAC & Headphone Amp

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Qudelix-5K USB DAC and balanced headphone amplifier with Bluetooth receiver. I purchased this myself but a member kindly donated one third of the cost. The Qudelix 5K costs US $110 on Amazon including shipping. The Qudelix comes in a nice...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Now that I understand a lot more about these things, 1st thanks again, for the recommendation.

I am unlikely to be in need of a bluetooth enabled DAC, and would want to save money on purchasing a dongle DAC which does not come with the added cost of bluetooth components and a battery. For bluetooth enable listening - e.g casual music listening, or meetings - I'll most likely purchase some inexpensive wireless earphones.

Current dongle shortlist for consideration includes :

1. EPZ TP20
2 Moondrop Dawn Pro
3. TEmpotec Sonata BHD Pro
4. Hizizs S8
5. Hidizs S8 Pro
6. Hidizs S9
7. Hidizs S9 Pro
8. Hidizs S9 Pro Plus - aka Martha
9. Creative G6
10 Tanchjim Space
11 One of the Ibasso range of dongle Dacs
12. One of the Hiby FC range of dongle Dacs
13 Meizu Hifi

EDIT (added some other dongles to the shortlist)

14. Qudelix 5K
15. Hidizs XO

But on second thoughts, at the back of head I'm wondering - If portability is not a major criteria for me. am I not better served by looking for a good affordable Desktop DAC/Headphone instead?

Why? More headphone amp power, so I never have a concern with driving demanding headphones such as planar magnetics, or high impedance headphones above 200 ohms, as cleanly as possible. I understand that it should not be a problem for most dongles to drive my current over the ear headphone - the AKG K702, and my inexpensive IEM style headphones, but I'd like to leave myself with a free hand to add any kind of headphone (excluding electrostatics) to my collection of headphones, without worrying about whether my DAC's headphone outputs can drive the headphones sufficiently.

Hate to start a new thread to ask this question : What are the desktop DAC/Headphones devices which I should consider? Cost circa $100, or ideally less. Sound quality is the most important criteria, and being able to drive both very low impedance IEM's and high impedance traditional headphones. (over the ears, with large diaphragms) suitably.

 

[OK1]

I do not have any measurements, but I think I was wrong. The DAC on the Samsung dongle is good. My DELL Laptop while initially seemed better, I now conclude that it was highlighting things in the mid range, where we have a tendency to hear these frequencies more easily. But the Samsung DAC has no such enhanced mid range so it does not sound as enriched, but it is telling the truth. So I've gone back to using the Samsung dongle DAC, for now, until I get something better.

 

[staticV3]

What are the desktop DAC/Headphones devices which I should consider? Cost circa $100, or ideally less. Sound quality is the most important criteria, and being able to drive both very low impedance IEM's and high impedance traditional headphones. (over the ears, with large diaphragms) suitably.

If you don't need much power, the Topping DX1 is a good place to start.

If you want a powerful Amp, buy a Topping L30II and pair it with whatever DAC you have laying around.

 

[AdamG]

Now that I understand a lot more about these things, 1st thanks again, for the recommendation.

I am unlikely to be in need of a bluetooth enabled DAC, and would want to save money on purchasing a dongle DAC which does not come with the added cost of bluetooth components and a battery. For bluetooth enable listening - e.g casual music listening, or meetings - I'll most likely purchase some inexpensive wireless earphones.

Current dongle shortlist for consideration includes :

1. EPZ TP20
2 Moondrop Dawn Pro
3. TEmpotec Sonata BHD Pro
4. Hizizs S8
5. Hidizs S8 Pro
6. Hidizs S9
7. Hidizs S9 Pro
8. Hidizs S9 Pro Plus - aka Martha
9. Creative G6
10 Tanchjim Space
11 One of the Ibasso range of dongle Dacs
12. One of the Hiby FC range of dongle Dacs
13 Meizu Hifi

But on second thoughts, at the back of head I'm wondering - If portability is not a major criteria for me. am I not better served by looking for a good affordable Desktop DAC/Headphone instead?

Why? More headphone amp power, so I never have a concern with driving demanding headphones such as planar magnetics, or high impedance headphones above 200 ohms, as cleanly as possible. I understand that it should not be a problem for most dongles to drive my current over the ear headphone - the AKG K702, and my inexpensive IEM style headphones, but I'd like to leave myself with a free hand to add any kind of headphone (excluding electrostatics) to my collection of headphones, without worrying about whether my DAC's headphone outputs can drive the headphones sufficiently.

Hate to start a new thread to ask this question : What are the desktop DAC/Headphones devices which I should consider? Cost circa $100, or ideally less. Sound quality is the most important criteria, and being able to drive both very low impedance IEM's and high impedance traditional headphones. (over the ears, with large diaphragms) suitably.

Just a little more about the Qudelix 5K. It can be run in full USB (connected mode) or you can use the Bluetooth mode. I have never used the Bluetooth mode and exclusively use the USB connection for the better audio performance (USB DAC 96KHz / 24-bit). The unit does use Bluetooth for interference controls with Bluetooth but the audio can be routed to USB for improved audio output/throughput.

 

[OK1]

Just a little more about the Qudelix 5K. It can be run in full USB (connected mode) or you can use the Bluetooth mode. I have never used the Bluetooth mode and exclusively use the USB connection for the better audio performance (USB DAC 96KHz / 24-bit). The unit does use Bluetooth for interference controls with Bluetooth but the audio can be routed to USB for improved audio output/throughput.

At a different point in time, I would have purchased something with the acclaimed quality the Qudelix 5K, without worrying about the cost, but regrettably have to try nowadays to do more with less funds.

I'll still keep the Quedelix 5K on the shortlist cos I watched a video on Youtube - review by DongleMadness and it's one of his higher scoring dongle's., i.e it sounds good.

 

[OK1]

Broadly speaking, had to eliminate any iFi and Hiby devices, cos manufacturer published specs gave me very little to go on. The Qudelix 5K, Hidizs S9Pro Martha, Creative G6, Ibasso DC04 Pro, were over budget, currently capped at about £100. Had to eliminate Fiio KA11, cos of anecdotal reports of poor reliability, on forums and its also out of stock at this time in the UK. Hidizs S9 seems difficult to find, in the UK., Meizu Mblu Lifeme and Meiu Hifi taken out based on average/less than average, results in Amir's tests.

Which leaves current shortlist as :

1. EPZ TP20
2 Moondrop Dawn Pro
3. Tempotec Sonata BHD Pro
4. Hidizs S8
5. Hidizs S8 Pro
6. Hidizs S9 Pro
7. Hidizs XO
8. Tanchjim Space
9. Ibasso DC03 Pro
10. Shanling UA1 Plus.
11. Topping DX1
12. Fiio KA13

 

[OK1]

Update :

One one hand I am impressed by the specs of what is available, at what would have been impossibly low prices - Signal to Noise greater than 120dB, for $50. Then you hear horror stories of issues with reliability, and in my case, many supply chain issues with products that may need to be shipped in from China or the US, cos there is no local supplier with stock in the UK (With implications for as yet unknown import duties and handling charges, for anything I import - I hate negative surprises)

Any critical listening, will be done in a quiet room, in a home or hotel. And it should not be a big deal to take with me a portable desktop DAC for such events, away from home., or if such events become regular, revisit this issue and purchase a dongle DAC.

So on further analysis, I do not need at this time, a high quality - high spec dongle DAC, for mobile listening, e..g on walks, or on public transport. For that - the Apple or Samsung dongles which I already have, or some cheapie Ugreen or JCally DAC, which I may acquire in the future, will have to do. In such a scenario where mobility is the priority and quality of audio is not critical, also think a bluetooth connection to the source, via bluetooth headphones, is probably most ideal, in such use cases, eliminating the need for a DAC.

Therefore, this search for a dongle DAC, is put on hold. Next steps - research, decide, buy the best desktop supporting USB inputs, and a headphone + RCA unbalanced outputs, at the minimum, within budget - £120/$130 or less. Criteria - function over form., ASIO drivers, well manufactured, reliable, sound quality, in that order.

 

[OK1]

More thoughts on the dongle search. There's a reviewer, who I understand was a pioneer of this device segment, aka DongleMadness, and from what I have experienced so far - it is.

Too many quirks, incompatibilities, no common standards. USB should be just that - plug and play, maybe install a driver, end of. I'm ending the dongle DAC search, and best I bite the bullet and just get a desktop device. Which may not measure with bleeding edge specs to earn me bragging rights, but will be more than good enough and will just work,, day after day, and I can forget that its there, focussing on listening not the gear. Buy once, and like my studio quality reference speakers, not bother to replace them for 20+ years.

A good rant at the link below.

Recommend me a small, good measuring, small usb-c dongle from Amazon?

Hi everyone, I've been trying to find a well measuring ,small dongle ( apple dongle size), with microphone passthrough for my android phone. I've bought the Samsung ones from eBay and Amazon, but theyve all been fake! The apple dongle doesn't have enough volume on android without doing the...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[ZolaIII]

More thoughts on the dongle search. There's a reviewer, who I understand was a pioneer of this device segment, aka DongleMadness, and from what I have experienced so far - it is.

Too many quirks, incompatibilities, no common standards. USB should be just that - plug and play, maybe install a driver, end of. I'm ending the dongle DAC search, and best I bite the bullet and just get a desktop device. Which may not measure with bleeding edge specs to earn me bragging rights, but will be more than good enough and will just work,, day after day, and I can forget that its there, focussing on listening not the gear. Buy once, and like my studio quality reference speakers, not bother to replace them for 20+ years.

A good rant at the link below.

Recommend me a small, good measuring, small usb-c dongle from Amazon?

Hi everyone, I've been trying to find a well measuring ,small dongle ( apple dongle size), with microphone passthrough for my android phone. I've bought the Samsung ones from eBay and Amazon, but theyve all been fake! The apple dongle doesn't have enough volume on android without doing the...

audiosciencereview.com

I can't stop laughing! Standards are there, it's another question why most of OEM's are incapable of doing either drivers or device's properly. You are just spoiled and over thinking while not thinking at all. How will cheap "desktop" stereo DAC be better than dongle one or have better warenty & support? If you want those things you will have to pay and that still doesn't ensure good drivers or flow less functioning. Unrealistic expectations to begin with. I can't even guarantee the old proven and quality components will last you for 20 years and not something new regardless even if it's from companies with stellar build long lasting reputation like Yamaha or RME. Seven to 10 years probably yes but that's it. In the meantime people improving their setups with multichannel DAC's (adding sub's, doing digital crossovers and corrections) are less picky partly and because they have far less choice to begin with.

 

[OK1]

I can't stop laughing! Standards are there, it's another question why most of OEM's are incapable of doing either drivers or device's properly. You are just spoiled and over thinking while not thinking at all. How will cheap "desktop" stereo DAC be better than dongle one or have better warenty & support? If you want those things you will have to pay and that still doesn't ensure good drivers or flow less functioning. Unrealistic expectations to begin with. I can't even guarantee the old proven and quality components will last you for 20 years and not something new regardless even if it's from companies with stellar build long lasting reputation like Yamaha or RME. Seven to 10 years probably yes but that's it. In the meantime people improving their setups with multichannel DAC's (adding sub's, doing digital crossovers and corrections) are less picky partly and because they have far less choice to begin with.

Glad you got a chuckle (laugh) from my comments.

I would love to get an RME, absolutely love to, and I may just get one soon, bite the bullet once and for all. I've been reading their specs for over 20 years, but prior to now it's been just a hobby, and hard to justify the expense. They have the best support - excellent documentation, and reliability, great products, and have now caught up in stratospheric specs, for their high end products, comparable with almost anything else out there. Once they were more used in professional audio, but clearly the audiophile market has also discovered their products.

I invested in products from EMU, and Echo Audio, which were just as good as RME's and measured in some cases better. Unfortunately I backed the wrong horses. EMU and Echo Audio are no more, in that market. If they had survived, I would not be searching for anything new, cos the specs on these products from over a decade ago, still stand shoulder to shoulder, respectably with what is available today. So I have also been bitten, by the lack of driver updates from EMU and Echo Audio, not because they are bad businesses, but they simply do not exist or no longer make audio professional products.

My current position, having taken time to build a comparison spreadsheet of as much detail on the key products with ASIO support, is this :

1. I do NOT think there is any dongle out there, that will replace a dedicated desktop DAC with Headphone Amp, or separate DAC + Headphone Amp. It is for the fundamental reason, that the product cycle of these dongle dacs is very short, rather short. Barely have the products been released, or measured independently, and you look for them, and they are no more, or have to be purchased from obscure vendors in China, with all kinds of risks(return, delivery, etc). Software support for most, is sketchy, if the user reviews are to be believed. Reliability based on info out there on the web, also has challenges. I still plan to get a dongle most likely either one from Hidizs, or Tempotec, Ibasso, or FiiO, in that order of preference which are manufacturers, who seem to have decent ASIO support for almost ALL their dongles, and definitely for ALL recent dongles. But this dongle purchase is now more out of gear lust than necessity, I'll take my time on this. Not spend too much on the item £70 max.

2. I am encouraged, either soon or in the distant future, to get to a configuration where I can have separates

-Dedicated USB DAC (With or Without Headphone Amp) - Desktop
-Dedicated High Quality Headphone Amp - Desktop (Optional, if the Dedicated USB DAC - has a good enough Headphone Amp)
-Good quality cables

Because the interface standards are pretty much well established - like USB, RCA Unbalanced, XLR balanced, TRS balanced, this way I do not lose the entire functionality of any device. Right now I have two audio interfaces, and I have to junk everything simply because they do not have current drivers - and add to landfill one day. Terrible waste of very good gear. If only the manufacturers would open source their code, so others could support these drivers. If only. So preamps, DAC's, headphone amps, all made obsolete, cos in one case - they were made for high impedance phones(and the industry has changed with lots of low impedance headphones - especially IEM's), and then no driver support.

For me - clearly separates has to be the way to go. No more getting burnt, cos of an ALL IN ONE device, No more, at least that's the long term plan.

The key challenge is obviously cost. The impression I get is that it's a lot easier price wise, for those living in North America, cos of their bigger market. Many products, for us who live in the UK, are not stocked by UK retailers - who tend to cater for the traditional Hi-Fi/Audiophile customer who is more interested in harmonically distorted enriched music, aided by valves - you know the boutique kind of hi-fi, which does not measure particularly well, but looks epic. Not my kind of scene.

What do I have in mind - Would love a Schiit Heresy Headphone Amp and any other decent USB DAC from a mainstream Chi-Fi or other manufacturer with solid ASIO drivers. That would be my ideal combo, and I'm done with this, for maybe another 20 years, before I even think of an upgrade.

Challenge is the Heresy is not available in the UK.

I'll start another thread, to discuss this "desktop" option.

EDIT :

Changed my mind. Will try and get a dongle instead. No more than £50.