Music: how loud is loud? (video)

[gnarly]

the question is if the mics are capable of registring the peaks without any mecanical compression

Yep, for sure.
I use this Isemcon 7150, good to at least 140dB, to keep that from happening. https://www.isemcon.net/ashop/product_info.php?language=en&products_id=57

But I think even an ECM8000 might work.... depending on what the Lz Average is for the loud listening level.
My guess is the ECM8000 is good to at least 120-125dB peaks, so maybe good for around 95dB average SPL on the TriCycle track, before the mic would crap out.
Dunno, but wouldn't be hard to check the mic...just see if crest factor shrinks as volume is turned up...

but wait ! we get back to 99% of home systems will shrink the crest factor probably before the mic does....hells bells, can't even test a cheap mic Lol

 

[dasdoing]

but wait ! we get back to 99% of home systems will shrink the crest factor probably before the mic does....hells bells, can't even test a cheap mic Lol

lol

My guess is the ECM8000 is good to at least 120-125dB peaks

I have the EMM-6; "Max SPL for 1% THD @ 1 kHz: 127 dB" they say: https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/911/emm-6-electret-measurement-microphone

 

[Soundescape]

I think that we could consider also WHO-ITU H.870 standard:

Safe listening levels and headphone voltage/power requirements

The only not so usable point is that if we connect a software meter with a streaming service it is hard to know the unormalized LUFS for each palying track as we will see the LUFS stats in the meter already normalized. Playing the track twice is quite annoying (unormalized and then normalized).

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[JimWeir]

the question is if the mics are capable of registring the peaks without any mecanical compression

All condenser mics have a damped resonance that determines the high frequency limit. It might be at 18kHz for a free field mic with a 20kHz band limit. Remember though with music signals even a transient contains less high frequencies that low frequencies. (Only a Dirac function (perfect impulse) has a flat frequency response.

 

[Count Dacula]

Just for fun, I was at the Unity Tour last summer with Pet Shop Boys and New Order in an outdoor amphitheater, the Mann Music Center in Philly. Not to be distracted by the fully amazing world-class show, I measured the db behind the mixing board, and it was 115db, yeow.


My home music is loud at 85db

 

[JimWeir]

A screen shot from a concert a week ago
The concert? James Taylor. This is the NIOSH SLM app for iPhone

 

[Sal1950]

A screen shot from a concert a week ago
The concert? James Taylor. This is the NIOSH SLM app for iPhone

?? 134.9 db at a JT concert, that doesn't seem right ??

 

[JimWeir]

A screen shot from a concert a week ago
The concert? James Taylor. This is the NIOSH SLM app for iPhone
View attachment 294387

That is the instantaneous highest C-weighted peak maximum for the 13 second measurement. The loudest RMS C fast level during that period was 109dB. That is a pretty loud level. But not unbelievable as Steve Gadd was cranking on the drums piped through the PA. My floor seats were in line with the stage right J array about 120 feet away from the stage.
The A weighted average for the 13 seconds were a touch above OSHA’s 90dBAeq 8Hour limit. Most the concert was not this loud.

 

[gnarly]

That is the instantaneous highest C-weighted peak maximum for the 13 second measurement. The loudest RMS C fast level during that period was 109dB. That is a pretty loud level. But not unbelievable as Steve Gadd was cranking on the drums piped through the PA. My floor seats were in line with the stage right J array about 120 feet away from the stage.
The A weighted average for the 13 seconds were a touch above OSHA’s 90dBAeq 8Hour limit. Most the concert was not this loud.

Thanks.
I don't think many people realize how high unweighted SPL peaks are, in plain old ordinary daily life.
Drop a fork on a plate from no higher than a foot, to get a 120-125dB peak.

And i don't think many realize how large the dB range usually is in live sound.......especially between average, slow, fast, true peak...and how the average weightings can mislead.

I think the typical inability of home audio to produce true peaks is a big part in a lack of realism compared to live, and certainly compared to real sounds.

 

[JimWeir]

Thanks.
I don't think many people realize how high unweighted SPL peaks are, in plain old ordinary daily life.
Drop a fork on a plate from no higher than a foot, to get a 120-125dB peak.

And i don't think many realize how large the dB range usually is in live sound.......especially between average, slow, fast, true peak...and how the average weightings can mislead.

I think the typical inability of home audio to produce true peaks is a big part in a lack of realism compared to live, and certainly compared to real sounds.

Yes live sound from ordinary events are more dynamic than any recorded music. Thank goodness, due to the perceptual limitations in human hearing we don’t have to maintain the natural dynamics of a snare drum to have the recorded signal sound like a snare drum. The film and broadcast industry standards recommend an 18 to 20 dB crest factor, relative to 0 daBFS.
Music recording on analog media were typically limited to 13dB Crest factor Max. Less for Cassette.
With digital signals there are little technical limits other than the need or risk of needing to tweek the volume control between songs.

Check out this video I did a while back!

 

[JimWeir]

Thanks.
I don't think many people realize how high unweighted SPL peaks are, in plain old ordinary daily life.
Drop a fork on a plate from no higher than a foot, to get a 120-125dB peak.

And i don't think many realize how large the dB range usually is in live sound.......especially between average, slow, fast, true peak...and how the average weightings can mislead.

I think the typical inability of home audio to produce true peaks is a big part in a lack of realism compared to live, and certainly compared to real sounds.

Yes live sound from ordinary events are more dynamic than any recorded music. Thank goodness, due to the perceptual limitations in human hearing we don’t have to maintain the natural dynamics of a snare drum to have the recorded signal sound like a snare drum. The film and broadcast industry standards recommend an 18 to 20 dB crest factor, relative to 0 daBFS.
Music recording on analog media were typically limited to 13dB Crest factor Max. Less for Cassette.
With digital signals there are little technical limits other than the need or risk of needing to tweek the volume control between songs.

Check out this video I did a while back!

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Thanks.
I don't think many people realize how high unweighted SPL peaks are, in plain old ordinary daily life.
Drop a fork on a plate from no higher than a foot, to get a 120-125dB peak.

And i don't think many realize how large the dB range usually is in live sound.......especially between average, slow, fast, true peak...and how the average weightings can mislead.

I think the typical inability of home audio to produce true peaks is a big part in a lack of realism compared to live, and certainly compared to real sounds.

To add to that, I'm certain many peoples system is clipping on a regular basis without them knowing. And I'll add my little conspiracy theory that that's why we don't see clipping indicators on residential HiFi amplifiers.

 

[JimWeir]

To add to that, I'm certain many peoples system is clipping on a regular basis without them knowing. And I'll add my little conspiracy theory that that's why we don't see clipping indicators on residential HiFi amplifiers.

And momentary asymmetrical (+/- V not left right) clipping (the most common kind - produces DC offset at the speaker terminal moving the DC coupled woofer in or out of it magnetic gap is a way the is not related to the signal passing through the woofer - generating distortion anomalies in its band pass.
Listening - it pulls the imaging back to the loudspeaker - effects the timbre of instruments and if the amplifier is slow to recover (DC can leak back into the power transistor Bias depending on the circuit design) things just sound wrong.

 

[Adi777]

I was recently listening to the B&O Beolab 90, I measured the SPL, unfortunately, but only with the phone. It was on Flight to LAPD from the Blade Runner 2049 soundtrack. It was about 85dB - average. I was sitting about 3.5 meters from the speakers. It was so intense that I thought the ceiling would collapse on us. Seriously

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I was recently listening to the B&O Beolab 90, I measured the SPL, unfortunately, but only with the phone. It was on Flight to LAPD from the Blade Runner 2049 soundtrack. It was about 85dB - average. I was sitting about 3.5 meters from the speakers. It was so intense that I thought the ceiling would collapse on us. Seriously

Yeah, 85 dB average is quite loud. I do it once in a while but not for too long time. I'm determined to keep a good hearing for as long as possible.

 

[Sal1950]

Check out this video I did a while back!

Highly educational video, thanks Jim.
I wonder how many systems can deliver that kind of power,
and how many speakers can handle it?
The more I learn on this subject the more it reinforces my favor of
high efficiency speakers, large horns especially.

 

[gnarly]

Yes live sound from ordinary events are more dynamic than any recorded music. Thank goodness, due to the perceptual limitations in human hearing we don’t have to maintain the natural dynamics of a snare drum to have the recorded signal sound like a snare drum. The film and broadcast industry standards recommend an 18 to 20 dB crest factor, relative to 0 daBFS.
Music recording on analog media were typically limited to 13dB Crest factor Max. Less for Cassette.
With digital signals there are little technical limits other than the need or risk of needing to tweek the volume control between songs.

Check out this video I did a while back!

Yes, I've seen that video before, and enjoyed/appreciated it . Many Thx!

I am a 100% believer in how reproduction improves with unclipped sound...at the system level.
I say system level, because i think it's important to take into account both amplifier capacity and drivers capability , to assess total acoustic peak capability.

Lord knows, I'm clean headroom junkie....
Use prosound amps ,where I can monitor my DIY multi-way driver sections, as per pict. Of course, subs always are the constraint....
From watching those meters, I don't see how virtually all home audio passives, and the majority or actives, have any hope at all, at unclipped sound.
Anyway....

Hey, quick question about the awesome 2245....what is the shortest duration peak integration period?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Yes, I've seen that video before, and enjoyed/appreciated it . Many Thx!

I am a 100% believer in how reproduction improves with unclipped sound...at the system level.
I say system level, because i think it's important to take into account both amplifier capacity and drivers capability , to assess total acoustic peak capability.

Lord knows, I'm clean headroom junkie....
Use prosound amps ,where I can monitor my DIY multi-way driver sections, as per pict. Of course, subs always are the constraint....
From watching those meters, I don't see how virtually all home audio passives, and the majority or actives, have any hope at all, at unclipped sound.
Anyway....

Hey, quick question about the awesome 2245....what is the shortest duration peak integration period?



View attachment 295122

Yeah. I clipped my PA 350 W @ 8 ohm amp with "ordinary" slim tower speakers. These were 7 drivers in each column and TOTL at the time but still kind of ordinary relatively. This was during listening loud, granted to a live recording, so dynamics were higher I guess.

Now I have a 700 W amp battling a pair of Kappa 8.2i. Perfect combo.

 

[Count Dacula]

It's funny, but... even birds chirping seem kind of loud, especially for their size. Living in the country elevates the senses a bit. The noise of a passing cars, the birds, sense of smell and taste....even the exhaust from a single car passing by. I would recommend earplugs in an urban setting for a day or two, and go without the 'ol ear buds too. See how it works for you.

The birds are a definite presence when they are gathered around the house, and some go off at night....all pretty loud. Surely it's a masking effect, and a reduced "noise" floor too, but also the awareness that comes from listening for them, and to it....

Also my physical hearing improved suddenly after getting my blood sugar down. I told my wife that I noticed it, and then looked it up. Yes, it's a real effect! I think the circulation improves within the inner ear capillaries. Critical listening itself is a skill though. I peaked early with audio (excuse the pun) so I would try to explain the concept to friends and hopefully it inspired them. I had so many opportunities in the music industry, but never really picked up the baton the way I should have. There have been some fantastic experiences adjunct to that, but I never put my stamp on anything, per se. There's so many great scenes in 24 Hour Party People, but the one that I relate to the best is after recording a rough mix at Factory Records, New 0rder demos the cassette on a car stereo at night with their mates. Maybe to "get it" you have to view the scene, or to "be there".

Not to go OT so far, but there's more to music than db or THD.

 

[Sal1950]

Not to go OT so far, but there's more to music than db or THD

Very true, those are only 2 of the measureable areas of sound reproduction.