When is it worthwhile to issue a new digital remaster of classical music that was originally recorded on analog tape?

[Robin L]

I used to assume that if sonic detail wasn't captured in the recording process, it was lost forever. But now I'm wondering to what extent that's still true, and whether it might be possible to take say, some of the mono recordings of Arturo Toscanini and the NBC SO, convert them into stereo, even restore missing content.

Maybe with the "MAL" software Peter Jackson used on the "Get Back" sessions. The Toscanini/NBC Symphony Orchestra recordings are really a horrible mess.

 

[Robin L]

I can attest to Amoeba's three locations continuing to sell classical titles, though "back in the day" they had a much more impressive selection, with the upstairs of the Berkeley location being all-classical. When I lived in Fresno, I worked at Borders Books and Music from 2000 to 2007 and the chain fell apart soon after. When I started there, I soon became in charge of the music (CDs) section. However, before too long interest in CDs declined from its 2000 peak and I found myself sorting and shelving all product lines. After that I would buy classical titles from Rasputin's, Amoeba's competitor in Berkeley although this outlet took over the space vacated by Tower Records in Fresno. Though they had a fairly large selection, they were almost entirely used (albiet at very good prices). That location is now called "Mad Monk" and its stock of recordings has declined severely.

The reality is that Classical music lovers have, for the most part, moved on to streaming. That article concerning the end of the Musical Offering didn't touch on how big an influence it was on the early music community internationally during its heyday thanks to Joseph Spencer. Unfortunately, Joseph Spence died in 2001 of a rare blood disorder and his influence was no longer a part of the store's reach into the larger classical music community. One era ended 25 years ago, the other last year.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Joseph-Spencer-2847290.php

Knew I should have looked more closely at that post - Joseph Spencer was not Joseph Spence:

 

[The Dunster]

The sooner these old recordings can be backed up to DSD the better. (That way the tapes only need to come out as a last resort / if ever).
There are a lot of great recordings being released recently that are not so great sounding simply due to the master tapes deteriorating so badly over time.
Gilberto/Getz is a good example of a master tape being on its last legs so to speak, I'm sure that would be the case with many classical recordings as well.

With respect to classical music recordings, I have mostly CD's with very few SACD's (around 50 SACD's) and it's hard to make a case for seeking out an SACD version for stereo playback because the CD's in this genre are in my experience usually very well recorded / mastered - unlike mainstream rock/ pop.

As far as remasters go - I think it's a great idea if something is only on vinyl to get it into a Digitial release as well - but I'm not keen on endless reissues of the same old CD's if we already have one in existence which is perfectly adequate - and most in this genre are very good.

 

[pablolie]

If something was recorded analog with hiss... just keep it. I find there's always something lost in translation as you run things through filters and then try to re-inject the spectrum that was lost in the process. And inevitably pretty soon we'll hear about the "special AI remastered" label.

Among several others, I have a 24/192 digital remaster of Bill Evans' Waltz for Debby. I much prefer the 16/44 CD rip I have.

 

[Petrushka]

If something was recorded analog with hiss... just keep it. I find there's always something lost in translation as you run things through filters and then try to re-inject the spectrum that was lost in the process. And inevitably pretty soon we'll hear about the "special AI remastered" label.

Among several others, I have a 24/192 digital remaster of Bill Evans' Waltz for Debby. I much prefer the 16/44 CD rip I have.

There are hiss filters that do not cut high frequencies.

But…

There’s evidence that a touch of hiss can make high frequency music more audible. This is true even if the hiss is added to a recording that didn’t have it.

 

[Robin L]

The sooner these old recordings can be backed up to DSD the better. (That way the tapes only need to come out as a last resort / if ever).
There are a lot of great recordings being released recently that are not so great sounding simply due to the master tapes deteriorating so badly over time.
Gilberto/Getz is a good example of a master tape being on its last legs so to speak, I'm sure that would be the case with many classical recordings as well.

With respect to classical music recordings, I have mostly CD's with very few SACD's (around 50 SACD's) and it's hard to make a case for seeking out an SACD version for stereo playback because the CD's in this genre are in my experience usually very well recorded / mastered - unlike mainstream rock/ pop.

As far as remasters go - I think it's a great idea if something is only on vinyl to get it into a Digitial release as well - but I'm not keen on endless reissues of the same old CD's if we already have one in existence which is perfectly adequate - and most in this genre are very good.

There's no advantage to DSD recording and a few disadvantages. If one wants to digitally edit, PCM is better.

My SACD (hybrid) of Getz/Gilberto is from 2002. There are sonic problems with the recording, but they're baked into the original recording anyway. Listen close - you can hear the background hiss go up as Astrud Gilberto's microphone is faded up. Plenty of hiss anyway. It was recorded in March of 1963, pre-Dolby. In any case, the recording is already backed up to DSD.

 

[The Dunster]

The Toscanini/NBC Symphony Orchestra recordings are really a horrible mess.

Mark Obert-Thorn did an excellent job remastering many of these but EMI/CBS copyright infringment got in the way - even though CBS/EMI had zero interest in spending the time and money to get the recordings anywhere near the state Obert-Thorn did.

Instead, CBS/EMI, as I think you have implied - just re-released the garbage that already existed.

 

[LTig]

Sometimes the remaster doesn't work out well. The last link here (see posts 37 and 58 in particular) is an interesting and unfortunate case in which the 2022-2023 hi res version of Wagner: Ring conducted by Solti (Decca) had greatly reduced dynamic range compared to Decca's three earlier digital releases from 1984, 1997 and 2012.

Well, at least the 1997 remaster was clearly better than the first digital release from 1984 (less distortion). I don't know the newer ones.

I'm not sure if it is really necessary to redigitize tapes which get worse with age, at least not if the first digitization was done with good tape machines and ADCs. Also I don't think that not using dither is a problem since tape noise is much higher than any dither signal and hence works like dither.

 

[The Dunster]

There's no advantage to DSD recording and a few disadvantages. If one wants to digitally edit, PCM is better.

My SACD (hybrid) of Getz/Gilberto is from 2002. There are sonic problems with the recording, but they're baked into the original recording anyway. Listen close - you can hear the background hiss go up as Astrud Gilberto's microphone is faded up. Plenty of hiss anyway. It was recorded in March of 1963, pre-Dolby. In any case, the recording is already backed up to DSD.

I completely agree about DSD editing - it's a nightmare.

The 2002 recording is problematic though in that Astrud is heard in the right channel when she should be on the left.
2018 remaster is the best digital version I own - 2023 remaster by Kevin Gray / Acoustic sounds is garbage in comparison - very loud and compressed,

 

[Robin L]

Mark Obert-Thorn did an excellent job remastering many of these but EMI/CBS copyright infringment got in the way - even though CBS/EMI had zero interest in spending the time and money to get the recordings anywhere near the state Obert-Thorn did.

Instead, CBS/EMI, as I think you have implied - just re-released the garbage that already existed.

Are the Mark Obert-Thorne remasters for Naxos?

In any case, the NBC Symphony Orchestra are sonically hopeless due to Toscanini's interference. He wanted a podium perspective where one would hear every strand without a trace of blend. Studio 8-H? There are a few NBC Symphony Orchestra recordings from Carnagie Hall, but they're also recorded from too close a perspective. And Toscanini made the orchestra feel terrified anyway. A grotesquely over-rated set of recordings.

 

[pablolie]

Are the Mark Obert-Thorne remasters for Naxos?

In any case, the NBC Symphony Orchestra are sonically hopeless due to Toscanini's interference. He wanted a podium perspective where one would hear every strand without a trace of blend. Studio 8-H? There are a few NBC Symphony Orchestra recordings from Carnagie Hall, but they're also recorded from too close a perspective. And Toscanini made the orchestra feel terrified anyway. A grotesquely over-rated set of recordings.

Harsh but true. Never enjoyed anything I heard from Toscanini much. Reading about his style made me realize why. He never tried to make orchestras find their style. He bludgeoned them into trying to play *his*.

 

[The Dunster]

Are the Mark Obert-Thorne remasters for Naxos?

In any case, the NBC Symphony Orchestra are sonically hopeless due to Toscanini's interference. He wanted a podium perspective where one would hear every strand without a trace of blend. Studio 8-H? There are a few NBC Symphony Orchestra recordings from Carnagie Hall, but they're also recorded from too close a perspective. And Toscanini made the orchestra feel terrified anyway. A grotesquely over-rated set of recordings.

yes - Naxos Great Conductors Series.

Thanks for posting the reply. I was not aware of Toscanini's influence on the recordings - but it certainly makes sense and explains why the 5th and 7th recordings are an abomination.

 

[Robin L]

yes - Naxos Great Conductors Series.

Thanks for posting the reply. I was not aware of Toscanini's influence on the recordings - but it certainly makes sense and explains why the 5th and 7th recordings are an abomination.

The Naxos 5th/7th recordings are of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. The 7th is somehow regarded as the summit of Toscanini's Beethoven recordings. Could have fooled me. I've got it in the Smithsonian/RCA/BMG issue, prefer that transfer work. Somehow, for some reason, everybody seems to forget the Felix Weingartner/Vienna Philharmonic recordings from the same era, superior in all regards:

Meanwhile, the Rene Lebowitz/Royal Philharmonic set (recorded for Reader's Digest, believe it or not) is misrepresented in Tidal. One has to look it up under Rene Lebowitz, and the tracks are out of order. These are among the first recordings that have the music performed using the metronome indications of Beethoven's (or something close to it), have an excellent orchestra in excellent sound, fierce performances. But they are barely represented, while Toscanini's shipwrecks are represented 69 times in various performances/formats in Tidal.

Recordings like Weingartner's and Lebowitz's need new digital remasters but won't get them because the market for this sort of thing is so small.

 

[Kiko1974]

There's no advantage to DSD recording and a few disadvantages. If one wants to digitally edit, PCM is better.

My SACD (hybrid) of Getz/Gilberto is from 2002. There are sonic problems with the recording, but they're baked into the original recording anyway. Listen close - you can hear the background hiss go up as Astrud Gilberto's microphone is faded up. Plenty of hiss anyway. It was recorded in March of 1963, pre-Dolby. In any case, the recording is already backed up to DSD.

There are advantages in transfering an analogue master tape to DSD, moreso if DSD 128 or DSD 256 is used, over PCM.
First, most, if not all, Analogue to Digital converters are Delta Sigma based, that means that the first step of digitazing the analogue Signal IS very DSD-like. If you digitaze an analogue master tape to DSD 256 you can later transparently convert It to High Res PCM.
Second, DSD was originally developed by Sony as an archival format. Sony wanted to back Up its Sony Music analogue recordings into a future proof format. As I said before, as most (today, if not all) PCM Analogue to Digital converters start with Delta Sigma modulation, what basically Sony did was skip the decimation (aka: convertion from 1 bit Delta Sigma to PCM) stage, and stored the 1 bit Delta Sigma modulation straight on. DSD was born.

 

[wadude]

Somewhat curious why it is/may be so concentrated on this genre particularly?

Older recordings are closer to the source. The musicians performing on older recordings are generationally closer to the composers of the music. Old school training and aural traditions carried institutional knowledge through much of the twentieth century but time marches on. Technology and technique improve but homogenization dilutes the cultural swill. You can’t reclaim or make it great again, you have to celebrate what is here now. It is good to preserve old recordings.

 

[Waxx]

For archiving DSD is ok, that is true. You don't need to decode it. But that's the only technical advantage. But if it's a real advantage in reality i don't think so. PCM format is open source and so widespread that for me it's more logic to use that. The chance that it disappears is next to nothing.

Someone that i know record in DSD because he can't edit (only right takes). But there he uses the disadvantage as limitation for artistic reason, not technical. He mixes from those dsd takes analog on a 16ch API console with largely analog outboard (no plugins) to pcm 2 channel after that. So the premaster is PCM

 

[Robin L]

In any case, if there's reason to remaster a title it depends mostly on how good/bad previous mastering jobs were. Some of the first digital masters of analog recordings came from materials that weren't first generation and might have had eq or other effects on the "master" that were not up to current standards. Some of the early Beatles CD issues were rife with technical problems that were much greater (and much more audible) than whether the transfer was to DSD (not available at the time) or hi-bitrate PCM (ditto).

A lot of what I hear on Tidal consists of older analog recordings, usually mastered either using a hi-bit intermaster or sent out at some high-rez format like 192/24. And one can hear some differences between the more recent remasters and earlier versions. With classical music the more recent versions tend to be superior to older versions. Case in point, the famous 1960s recordings featuring Herbert von Karajan directing the Berlin Philharmonic. That's presented from a 2014 remastering as a 96/24 flac, but what's noticeable compared to the mid-priced CD issue is there's some sort of creamy reverb added at a low level in order to smooth out the chunky sound of the earlier release. There are similar improvements on Leonard Bernstein/NYPO recordings for Columbia along with George Szell/Cleveland Orchestra recordings for Epic. Point being that PCM vs. DSD is pretty meaningless with recordings of this sort where a fair level of intervention is required.

 

[The Dunster]

A lot of the old master tapes have degraded so much over time that even the latest and greatest gear and techniques can't meet, let alone improve on older recordings from those masters.
The Classical genre seems to fair better than a lot of the older Jazz material though.

 

[Elkerton]

When it was economically viable to do such things, RCA went to the trouble of finding and measuring the tape heads and microphones used in the production of releases on CD, like Rubinstein's Chopin Nocturnes and equalizing the master to make up for the deficiencies of both. I had a European pressing on LP with wonderfully silent surfaces. The CD release had such better bass and treble the LPs were quickly retired.

In another case, Big Joe Turner Sings Kansas City Blues, Boss of the Blues, was issued with ping-pong stereo, the band in one channel and Big Joe in the other. The CD was in mono as originally recorded. The balance of singer and band was restored- much preferred.

 

[levimax]

Under what conditions do you think it worthwhile to issue a new digital remaster of classical music, originally recorded on analog tape?

When a record company is under financial pressure to meet their profit forecast.