Modern AVR’s and Processors - Super Annoying Shortcoming

[Chrispy]

I just checked with a usb drive into the Denon 4700 directly, no problem using upmixer. Wirelessly hasn't been an issue either.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

I changed from "stereo" on laptop to 7.1 and it did cut out the whole upmixing thing (didn't get to surrounds as well as center), with AVR showing multich input. I remember some streaming services would act like that a few years back (send to avr as multich lpcm and negated the ability to apply the upmixer).

There we go. Except on the setups I’ve worked in, the problem exists regardless of the windows control panel setting.

Mind you, this is only a problem with PC feeding the AVR. But since PC is my preferred source, and how I do installs for friends and family, the problem is pervasive.

 

[Chrispy]

There we go. Except on the setups I’ve worked in, the problem exists regardless of the windows control panel setting.

Mind you, this is only a problem with PC feeding the AVR. But since PC is my preferred source, and how I do installs for friends and family, the problem is pervasive.

Funny how our computers don't work the same with the stereo setting (windows 10 for me fwiw). How about when you stream from the pc to avr?

 

[pseudoid]

Too simplistic of a querry but let this picture tell it to you rather than me:

?

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

I am confused. Why are you not just using the Dolby Surround Upmixer or DTS Neural X??

 

[Dougey_Jones]

I am confused. Why are you not just using the Dolby Surround Upmixer or DTS Neural X??

Bro, what I’m telling you, is that if I use ANY of those up mixers it creates a 4.1 surround mix with no center channel. And this isn’t specific to my RZ50. It the same thing with a Denon AVR-1909, Marantz NR1402, Integra DTR 30.5..

The only AVR I have that doesn’t give a rats ass what you feed it, and will upmix anything is an old Panasonic SA-XR57.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Too simplistic of a querry but let this picture tell it to you rather than me:
View attachment 300830
?

No idea what you’re trying to get across with this image.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Instance 1) Computer HDMI —> RZ50

Instance 2) Computer HDMI —> TV —> Optical Out to AVR.

It really doesn’t matter how you slice it. Unless you have a computer connected to a modern AVR and the sound card output set to “Stereo”, then don’t discount what I’m saying.

I up-mix in my computer before sending it to the "AVR."

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

Bro, what I’m telling you, is that if I use ANY of those up mixers it creates a 4.1 surround mix with no center channel. And this isn’t specific to my RZ50. It the same thing with a Denon AVR-1909, Marantz NR1402, Integra DTR 30.5..

The only AVR I have that doesn’t give a rats ass what you feed it, and will upmix anything is an old Panasonic SA-XR57.

Your experience is completely atypical. I have owned 3 AVRs (onkyo and yamaha) and they all make use of the center channel with the various flavour upmixers. This is literally the entire point of these surround upmixers. I would go back to square one and re-do your setup and configuration.

 

[Chrispy]

Bro, what I’m telling you, is that if I use ANY of those up mixers it creates a 4.1 surround mix with no center channel. And this isn’t specific to my RZ50. It the same thing with a Denon AVR-1909, Marantz NR1402, Integra DTR 30.5..

The only AVR I have that doesn’t give a rats ass what you feed it, and will upmix anything is an old Panasonic SA-XR57.

I haven't had issues with an Onkyo and three other Denons fwiw. It's gotta be the computer audio feed rather than the processors...

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Your experience is completely atypical. I have owned 3 AVRs (onkyo and yamaha) and they all make use of the center channel with the various flavour upmixers. This is literally the entire point of these surround upmixers. I would go back to square one and re-do your setup and configuration.

If you aren’t using a PC as a source your opinion doesn’t mean anything. I already said that if I feed any of these receivers a stereo analog source the upmixers all work fine.

An interesting point I’d like to add, is that my Xbox S does the same thing if you set the output to HDMI Stereo.

This is something unique to the Microsoft audio stack and the way it transmits stereo PCM. I just find it interesting that old equipment can overcome this “encoding” and new ones cannot.

 

[Blumlein 88]

To the op:

How new does the AVR need to be? Or at least what is the oldest you have that has this problem?

 

[Chrispy]

I wonder if @amirm can shed any Microsoft help here....

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

If you aren’t using a PC as a source your opinion doesn’t mean anything. I already said that if I feed any of these receivers a stereo analog source the upmixers all work fine.

An interesting point I’d like to add, is that my Xbox S does the same thing if you set the output to HDMI Stereo.

This is something unique to the Microsoft audio stack and the way it transmits stereo PCM. I just find it interesting that old equipment can overcome this “encoding” and new ones cannot.

It works with every source I use, including HDMI from my Windows HTPC.

 

[smale]

My theory to this is that if windows is set up for 5.1/7.1 etc. it sends 2.0 signals in a 5.1/7.1 container with the remaining channels blank. The AVR thinks it gets a multi channel signal and hence no upmixing available.
If my theory is correct Microsoft is to blame for this, not the AVR manufacturers.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

To the op:

How new does the AVR need to be? Or at least what is the oldest you have that has this problem?

You’ve got it backwards. Old AVR’s (think early 2000’s) don’t seem to care and will matrix anything using PL2 or DTS Neo.

It’s new AVRs that do this, including my brand new RZ50 and the other receivers I mentioned which are all from the past 10’ish years.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

My theory to this is that if windows is set up for 5.1/7.1 etc. it sends 2.0 signals in a 5.1/7.1 container with the remaining channels blank. The AVR thinks it gets a multi channel signal and hence no upmixing available.
If my theory is correct Microsoft is to blame for this, not the AVR manufacturers.

I agree with you, I posted the exact same theory above.

Only thing that doesn’t make sense is that old receivers somehow ignore the container and do it anyway, when you’d think it would be an across the board problem.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Here’s someone else talking about it, the problem is, it doesn’t behave the way they state in this thread. For me, it doesn’t matter what I set the speaker config to, it won’t let me upmix a 2ch source.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater/comments/klv4mk

 

[smale]

I agree with you, I posted the exact same theory above.

Only thing that doesn’t make sense is that old receivers somehow ignore the container and do it anyway, when you’d think it would be an across the board problem.

I would say it's weird if they even allow upmixing to channels that apparently (from the AVRs point of view) has content. Won't that end up with a total mess if it's fed a proper 5.1 signal?

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

You are a singularly unlucky person or there is something unique about the way you are configuring your systems that is creating this problem. I've been using surround upmixers and windows as a music source for decade+, multiple AVRs, multiple PCs, and never once encountered this issue.