New Emotiva XMC-2+ and RMC-1+: What is the difference, and what do you think?

[Fredygump]

If you are ok with eARC and your own room correction, then Nuprime-x H16-AES + 2x octo dac 8 pro will cost likely under 3.5 -4k

Ha! You proved my point. If you want to do your own DSP, you'll probably need a MiniDSP HTx, which costs ~$950 + tariffs for 8 channels of processing. If you want to add 16 channels of DSP processing, you're looking at an extra $2k +/-.

I do have a little experience with DSP processors. I have the HTx running a custom pair of 4 way speakers, and to my knowledge the HTx is the best value per channel, especially considering the excellent sound quality. Before the HTx I tried two cheaper DSP processor that were really bad...

I realize this is an international forum, so my sentiment may not be shared by all, but for a long time I have valued buying from local companies...and the distasteful politics and pseudo trade war aside, I would like to support an American company like Emotiva. If they can produce a good product at a competitive price, then I am happy to buy from them.

 

[snoman00]

Both of the Anthem pre-pros have balanced outputs, and both are less than $10K.

These are fake, or commonly referred to as pseudo-balanced. Anthem uses a single ended design, then markets this as being 'superior' (Anthem FAQ page), but marketing doesn't trump basic physics. The same single ended technology is used by pretty much every manufacture out there for consumer grade units. After Emotiva, I'm aware of 4 companies offering fully differential balanced circuitry and they cost $20k-$40k (Storm, Acurus, DataSat, Trinnov).

 

[Anton S]

These are fake, or commonly referred to as pseudo-balanced. Anthem uses a single ended design, then markets this as being 'superior' (Anthem FAQ page), but marketing doesn't trump basic physics. The same single ended technology is used by pretty much every manufacture out there for consumer grade units. After Emotiva, I'm aware of 4 companies offering fully differential balanced circuitry and they cost $20k-$40k (Storm, Acurus, DataSat, Trinnov).

Fake? According to Anthem's website:

All three pins of the XLR connection are part of the circuit, which means it's a real balanced connection. (If pin 3 is sent to ground or left open, as is sometimes the case, then an XLR jack is an adapter, not a balanced input.) The purpose of balanced connection is cancelling out certain types of interference and ground loops.

 

[darth]

Fake? According to Anthem's website:

All three pins of the XLR connection are part of the circuit, which means it's a real balanced connection. (If pin 3 is sent to ground or left open, as is sometimes the case, then an XLR jack is an adapter, not a balanced input.) The purpose of balanced connection is cancelling out certain types of interference and ground loops.

The question only states that for the amps/preamps, not sure if processors are included?

Frequently Asked Questions | Anthem®

anthemav.com

Also see the next FAQ.

Frequently Asked Questions | Anthem®

anthemav.com

AVM manual lists

Balanced XLR Pre-Amp Outputs (AVM Only) —Using External Amplifiers​

Balanced XLR connection offers the highest analog transmission quality, particularly over long cable lengths because it rejects noise and hum pickup. These outputs are provided using the conventional pin-2 positive configuration.

With the AVM models, the RCA and XLR outputs have identical signals at the same time (XLR connections are suitable for longer cables).

Anthem Manual

manuals.anthemav.com

 

[Anton S]

The question only states that for the amps/preamps, not sure if processors are included?

Frequently Asked Questions | Anthem®

anthemav.com

Also see the next FAQ.

Frequently Asked Questions | Anthem®

anthemav.com

AVM manual lists

Anthem Manual

manuals.anthemav.com

Yes, the AVM 70 and 90 outputs are balanced. This is from my AVM Manual:

XLR Balanced Outputs
XLR balanced connections offer the highest analog transmission quality, particularly over long cable runs, because they reject noise and hum. The AVM’s XLR outputs are internally wired in the conventional pin-2 positive configuration.

Also, it only makes sense that the circuit can't be balanced end-to-end when starting with single-ended analog inputs, doesn't it? The the primary reason for balanced interconnects is noise rejection over long runs anyway.

 

[Anton S]

This also from Anthem's website:

What about the whole circuit from front to back - is it fully balanced?​

No. At some point the signal must become single-ended, or interference can't be cancelled. This is better done sooner rather than later in the signal chain. The purpose of a balanced stage within a circuit is cancelling out nonlinearities arising in the circuit itself, and/or to double the signal level while cancelling out some noise. This is purely a means, not an end. We use a balanced arrangement in specific areas within a circuit where it makes a meaningful difference. Doing this to an entire piece of equipment for the sake of using the catch phrase "fully balanced" may achieve nothing but a significant increase in cost, or worse if the two halves of the circuit aren't matched well.

 

[Fredygump]

Yes, the AVM 70 and 90 outputs are balanced. This is from my AVM Manual:

XLR Balanced Outputs
XLR balanced connections offer the highest analog transmission quality, particularly over long cable runs, because they reject noise and hum. The AVM’s XLR outputs are internally wired in the conventional pin-2 positive configuration.

Also, it only makes sense that the circuit can't be balanced end-to-end when starting with single-ended analog inputs, doesn't it? The the primary reason for balanced interconnects is noise rejection over long runs anyway.

Amir did a review of the AVM90. This is what he had to say about their balanced connections:

Anthem AVM90 Processor Measurements
When products have balanced output, I usually focus on that as it usually provides better performance and of course, resilience to ground loops. Such was NOT the case here:"

Anthem AVM90 AV Processor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Anthem AVM90 home theater 15.4 channel Audio/Video Processor. It was sent to me by the company and is on sale for US $6375. As you see, the AVM90 sports a gorgeous, high contrast and large display. It is a joy to navigate this feature as it is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The SINAD was actually a little better from the unbalanced output. From the output voltage (4v), the XLR output is actually a balanced circuit, not a fake "balanced" output. But apparently their implementation of the unbalanced to balanced conversion degrades the signal slightly.

I'm not the electrical engineer, so I'm not sure if this is the "fake" balanced people talk about? I assumed the fake balanced output was using 2 of the 3 wires, at 2 volts output.

 

[Anton S]

The SINAD was actually a little better from the unbalanced output. From the output voltage (4v), the XLR output is actually a balanced circuit, not a fake "balanced" output. But apparently their implementation of the unbalanced to balanced conversion degrades the signal slightly.

I'm not the electrical engineer, so I'm not sure if this is the "fake" balanced people talk about? I assumed the fake balanced output was using 2 of the 3 wires, at 2 volts output.

Your assumption was partially correct. Unbalanced XLR connections either tie the ground and negative lines together, or they leave the ground "floating". Some "fancy" implementations provide switches that enable a user to choose between those two options.

 

[peng]

Amir did a review of the AVM90. This is what he had to say about their balanced connections:

Anthem AVM90 Processor Measurements
When products have balanced output, I usually focus on that as it usually provides better performance and of course, resilience to ground loops. Such was NOT the case here:"

Anthem AVM90 AV Processor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Anthem AVM90 home theater 15.4 channel Audio/Video Processor. It was sent to me by the company and is on sale for US $6375. As you see, the AVM90 sports a gorgeous, high contrast and large display. It is a joy to navigate this feature as it is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The SINAD was actually a little better from the unbalanced output. From the output voltage (4v), the XLR output is actually a balanced circuit, not a fake "balanced" output. But apparently their implementation of the unbalanced to balanced conversion degrades the signal slightly.

I'm not the electrical engineer, so I'm not sure if this is the "fake" balanced people talk about? I assumed the fake balanced output was using 2 of the 3 wires, at 2 volts output.

No, not fake at all. The XLR outputs implemented are balanced, by most definitions.

 

[telecesne]

I was all set to buy the XMC-2+ but had one question. The back of the unit shows Heights 1 and 2, but no Height 3 unless you configure Sub 2 and 3 as height and operate with single sub. I contacted Emotiva and they verified the unit is not configurable for a 5.2.6.
It is configurable for 5.2.4 OR 5.1.6 - arrgghhhh

I would recommend their products if it meets your particular Use Case, but in this instance, it did not meet my requirements for a 5.2.6.
On the other hand, you can split the single sub into a Y connector, you would only have single sub control - not sure if that matters in my environment.
However, Anthem AVM-70 is on sale and Marantz 8805A is on clearance, they both can be configured to my setup.

So now I struggle with the decision of what to do - from a pricing standpoint, they are all in the same ballpark, only difference is the Emotiva is less then a year old and Marantz is 6+ years old and the Anthem is 4+ years old.

I am suspecting a refresh from Marantz and Anthem (nothing official to go by - just looking at the age of the products).
Decisions, decisions...

 

[NicS]

I was all set to buy the XMC-2+ but had one question. The back of the unit shows Heights 1 and 2, but no Height 3 unless you configure Sub 2 and 3 as height and operate with single sub. I contacted Emotiva and they verified the unit is not configurable for a 5.2.6.
It is configurable for 5.2.4 OR 5.1.6 - arrgghhhh

I would recommend their products if it meets your particular Use Case, but in this instance, it did not meet my requirements for a 5.2.6.
On the other hand, you can split the single sub into a Y connector, you would only have single sub control - not sure if that matters in my environment.
However, Anthem AVM-70 is on sale and Marantz 8805A is on clearance, they both can be configured to my setup.

So now I struggle with the decision of what to do - from a pricing standpoint, they are all in the same ballpark, only difference is the Emotiva is less then a year old and Marantz is 6+ years old and the Anthem is 4+ years old.

I am suspecting a refresh from Marantz and Anthem (nothing official to go by - just looking at the age of the products).
Decisions, decisions...

How big are your front left & right speakers? Are they "full range"?

 

[ryanosaur]

I was all set to buy the XMC-2+ but had one question. The back of the unit shows Heights 1 and 2, but no Height 3 unless you configure Sub 2 and 3 as height and operate with single sub. I contacted Emotiva and they verified the unit is not configurable for a 5.2.6.
It is configurable for 5.2.4 OR 5.1.6 - arrgghhhh

I would recommend their products if it meets your particular Use Case, but in this instance, it did not meet my requirements for a 5.2.6.
On the other hand, you can split the single sub into a Y connector, you would only have single sub control - not sure if that matters in my environment.
However, Anthem AVM-70 is on sale and Marantz 8805A is on clearance, they both can be configured to my setup.

So now I struggle with the decision of what to do - from a pricing standpoint, they are all in the same ballpark, only difference is the Emotiva is less then a year old and Marantz is 6+ years old and the Anthem is 4+ years old.

I am suspecting a refresh from Marantz and Anthem (nothing official to go by - just looking at the age of the products).
Decisions, decisions...

AV20 is a great option. There are dealers that participate in several of the forum who can give you a very fair and exceptional price.

 

[telecesne]

How big are your front left & right speakers? Are they "full range"?

Hate to sound ignorant - what is considered 'full range'?

My speaker spec sheet has a 60 Hz to 40kHz range.
And - it is a Speaker Bar (RBH 6600 SW/R) - I know some people just wretched when they read 'Speaker Bar'

 

[telecesne]

AV20 is a great option. There are dealers that participate in several of the forum who can give you a very fair and exceptional price.

Yeah, I've been drooling over the AV20 - but that is a bit out of my price range.
I am looking to spend $4k or less.

 

[ryanosaur]

Yeah, I've been drooling over the AV20 - but that is a bit out of my price range.
I am looking to spend $4k or less.

I think you are missing my point. Street Price and MSRP are not the same thing.

 

[NicS]

Ha!! I've heard some speaker bars that sound amazing. Don't sweat that.

Full range is considered 20hz - 20khz. Frankly, for anyone o ver 40 it's 20hz to 15Khz (or less). With your speaker bar you'll need a subwoofer to fill in the 20-60hr range while anything over 15Khz will be inaudible and only annoy your dog, or someone's infant.

As an Emotiva owner I have to warn you... this is a bit of a FanBoi product. I have the RMCL-1. Its works great, once you get it to work, which involves a specific restart process when it gets confused. My wife won't touch it anymore. She thinks it's possessed and vindictive. From what you've said thus far, I think you'd be better off with an older Marantz unit. Unless you are going to get into "separates" and abandon your soundbar.

In that case, you can get around the lack of heights by using the sub channel for heights and connecting your subs directly to the front speakers, with an additional sub for the LFE (the 1 of 5.1) signal from your AVP. I do this myself. I tune a pair of subs to my "full-range" fronts with a 50hz crossover at 12db slope (pretty bog standard). And even though I don't get the advantage of DSP to control the subs more specifically, its works better for my listening habits.

 

[telecesne]

I think you are missing my point. Street Price and MSRP are not the same thing.

Yes, I understand. I have not been made aware of a street price for the AV20 less than $4k.
Now, if i come across one, that would be on the top of my list.

Appreciate you bringing that up - dealers on the forum.

 

[MKR]

I think you are missing my point. Street Price and MSRP are not the same thing.

Can the AV20 process Auro3D?

 

[telecesne]

Ha!! I've heard some speaker bars that sound amazing. Don't sweat that.

Full range is considered 20hz - 20khz. Frankly, for anyone o ver 40 it's 20hz to 15Khz (or less). With your speaker bar you'll need a subwoofer to fill in the 20-60hr range while anything over 15Khz will be inaudible and only annoy your dog, or someone's infant.

As an Emotiva owner I have to warn you... this is a bit of a FanBoi product. I have the RMCL-1. Its works great, once you get it to work, which involves a specific restart process when it gets confused. My wife won't touch it anymore. She thinks it's possessed and vindictive. From what you've said thus far, I think you'd be better off with an older Marantz unit. Unless you are going to get into "separates" and abandon your soundbar.

In that case, you can get around the lack of heights by using the sub channel for heights and connecting your subs directly to the front speakers, with an additional sub for the LFE (the 1 of 5.1) signal from your AVP. I do this myself. I tune a pair of subs to my "full-range" fronts with a 50hz crossover at 12db slope (pretty bog standard). And even though I don't get the advantage of DSP to control the subs more specifically, its works better for my listening habits.

Haha, yeah, I got one of those also (wife) and I've had the 'possessed' conversation with equipment before.

I am going separates - with the exception of the soundbar. I have 6 atmos speakers, 2 Rear surrounds, and an LCR Soundbar. Each speaker in the soundbar is discrete. Going with Buckeye Amps - only thing left is an AV Processor - although I am not opposed to an AVR - I really like the Sony STR-AZ7000ES.
Oh, and I have 2 Subwoofers for freqs below 80Hz. I think I can hit 20 Hz with the correct setup.

 

[NicS]

Haha, yeah, I got one of those also (wife) and I've had the 'possessed' conversation with equipment before.

I am going separates - with the exception of the soundbar. I have 6 atmos speakers, 2 Rear surrounds, and an LCR Soundbar. Each speaker in the soundbar is discrete. Going with Buckeye Amps - only thing left is an AV Processor - although I am not opposed to an AVR - I really like the Sony STR-AZ7000ES.
Oh, and I have 2 Subwoofers for freqs below 80Hz. I think I can hit 20 Hz with the correct setup.

So I take it that the LCR Soundbar is "active", ie self amplified? What model is it?

My advice is to get something that has a decent DSP setup. Dirac, Audissey, Fisher-Price, something.