New Emotiva XMC-2+ and RMC-1+: What is the difference, and what do you think?

[Anton S]

I agree with you on the appeal of the family-run customer service model. In my case, that's what set the hook for me to take a chance on on the XMC-1, which was actually my second Emo AVP. But the controls issues with that unit went well beyond simple HDMI handshake problems. They also included continual UI bugs and switching snafus, among other foibles.

Finally, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Amir to thoroughly vet all the controls of any pre-pro, Emo or otherwise. I imagine he has neither the time nor the inclination to do so, considering the level of complexity and the time required to investigate all the nooks and crannies. Look back through his previous test reviews on AVP's, and you'll note that he focuses primarily on the level of fidelity that he can measure and practically never delves into the controls end at all.

EDIT: I did get a chuckle out of your "possessed by the devil" comment. My wife always referred to it as "getting Emo'd."

 

[Fredygump]

Does anyone know the story on the Emotiva vs ToneWinner products? I wanted to say that Emotiva developing the BasX MC1 looks like an intentional R&D process where they start with a lower spec model and apply the lessons learned to a higher tier product.... But then I looked a little deaper and found that the internet is full of theories about the relationship between Emotiva and Tonewinner products. I'm curious if someone can clear up that confusion?

 

[DonH56]

Amir @amirm usually does not test all the functions of an AVR/AVP, just the audio side, so chances are would not find problems with things like HDMI interface issues and such. The audio side of Emotiva products has been mixed, with some excellent, others meh to poor, so who knows. Their Dirac Live implementation was curious, with DL applied independent of bass management, making subwoofer integration a pain. No idea if that has changed.

I went through the XMC-1 upgrade fiasco and watched the RMC-1 etc. release nightmare. I also own several Emotiva gen 1 amplifiers. I really wanted to take advantage of their trade-in, which would have been a good deal money-wise, but the bloody things were not stable and not all features available before the deal ran out so I passed (my XMC-1 is now a brick in a box in the basement, though it does function OK, but I have not had the heart to pawn it off on someone else). At this time, I would probably get another amp if I needed one (though more likely get another Buckeye), but would not purchase another processor. Too buggy, too short a product cycle, and mixed support (sometimes was great, other times useless). At the very least I would wait and see how the product is received by monitoring the Emotiva user forum and other places like AVS that have active threads on their products. It'd be great if they've gotten their act together, but personally I would pass just because I was burned so badly before.

Some of the amplifiers and other products bore a striking resemblance to ToneWinner products, right down to the internal boards, but AFAIK no relationship has been officially acknowledged. That said, I quit following Emotiva some years back, so do not know their current status.

 

[Fredygump]

Has anyone seen an RMC-1+ or XMC-1+ review yet? It is showing as available for purchase on their website. Shouldn't be long now!

I'm going in circles about what to expect from the RMC-1+! I figured out that Emotiva's description of the DAC implementation is actually the same as was quoted by Amir in his initial review of the RMC-1 in 2020. So that seems unchanged. Emotiva hasn't mentioned any changes to the audio performance.

Then I noticed that Amir's initial review of the RMC-1+ measured with a SINAD is 92. But on Amir's most recent chart of HT processors, RMC is listed as having a SINAD of 100.

With a score of 100, it is tied with Trinnov and Storm Audio! Those processors are more than 4x the cost of the Emotiva!

So what gives? Was the Emotiva actually good already? I mean for audio. I know about the HDMI issues... In my eyes, I'd say it is tied for 6th place. The way I see it, the MiniDSP products don't count because they don't decode multichannel, and the NAD is not multichannel.

Where can I find the corrected measurements of the RMC-1? It seems a disservice that the origian review has not been updated, or atleast notes added to the original review.

 

[NicS]

Has anyone seen an RMC-1+ or XMC-1+ review yet? It is showing as available for purchase on their website. Shouldn't be long now!

I'm going in circles about what to expect from the RMC-1+! I figured out that Emotiva's description of the DAC implementation is actually the same as was quoted by Amir in his initial review of the RMC-1 in 2020. So that seems unchanged. Emotiva hasn't mentioned any changes to the audio performance.

Then I noticed that Amir's initial review of the RMC-1+ measured with a SINAD is 92. But on Amir's most recent chart of HT processors, RMC is listed as having a SINAD of 100.

With a score of 100, it is tied with Trinnov and Storm Audio! Those processors are more than 4x the cost of the Emotiva!

View attachment 447790

So what gives? Was the Emotiva actually good already? I mean for audio. I know about the HDMI issues... In my eyes, I'd say it is tied for 6th place. The way I see it, the MiniDSP products don't count because they don't decode multichannel, and the NAD is not multichannel.

Where can I find the corrected measurements of the RMC-1? It seems a disservice that the origian review has not been updated, or atleast notes added to the original review.

According to Emotiva (ahem..), these are the improvements with my comments (*** in this form ***)

* 16 Fully Balanced Channels, configurable as 15.1 Atmos
* 8K (on all 8 inputs and 2 outputs) HDMI 2.1b with ARC/eARC
* Panasonic/Nuvoton HDMI Processing, Fast switching HDMI, 4K 120 hz / 8K 60 Hz
* Enhanced Dolby Atmos audio decoding. (*** I'd Like "Enhanced defined" ***)
* DTS:X Pro audio decoding
* IMAX Enhanced Audio and Video
* Built in Wifi and hard wired gigabit ethernet
* Fully embedded web setup and control system
* New TI Burr Brown PCM1795 DAC board and upgraded audio (*** I'd Like "..upgraded audio..." defined ***)
* 200 watt auto-switching power supply

Given that Amir's assessment of the original RMC-1 was significantly upgraded after a firmware update, I'm very curious to see how this "+" series processor performs audio wise.

Is it better?
Is it the same?
Is is it worse?

And again, what does "...upgraded audio..." mean when they are using a DAC chip that is a twenty year old design.

Amir!!! Love to get your take on this. The mere mention of your name on the Emotiva forums takes some into account tailspin.

 

[Fredygump]

And again, what does "...upgraded audio..." mean when they are using a DAC chip that is a twenty year old design.

Yes, definitions are always nice!

It appears to me that they are keeping as much as they can from the existing design. I think the input boards, power supply, and DACs are going to be the same. But the main CPU board and HDMI board will be replaced. This makes the most sense when we consider that they have a bunch of customers who want their unit upgraded to the new spec. So Emotiva will upgrade the existing units to the same spec as the "+" models, and they will replace as little as possible to make it happen. Because money!

Amir has discussed DAC chips, and if I recall correctly, the SINAD of the chip itself is 112. The DAC is not going to be the bottleneck! Well, if the chip is the bottleneck, they've done something nobody else has managed...

I do feel a bit sympathetic to Emotiva. I'm trying to produce my own product, and it isn't easy! I'm glad they got it over the finish line. And I'm hoping that it ends up being everything they intend it to be.

But yeah, I'd love to see reviews and measurements!

 

[NicS]

Yes, definitions are always nice!

It appears to me that they are keeping as much as they can from the existing design. I think the input boards, power supply, and DACs are going to be the same. But the main CPU board and HDMI board will be replaced. This makes the most sense when we consider that they have a bunch of customers who want their unit upgraded to the new spec. So Emotiva will upgrade the existing units to the same spec as the "+" models, and they will replace as little as possible to make it happen. Because money!

Amir has discussed DAC chips, and if I recall correctly, the SINAD of the chip itself is 112. The DAC is not going to be the bottleneck! Well, if the chip is the bottleneck, they've done something nobody else has managed...

I do feel a bit sympathetic to Emotiva. I'm trying to produce my own product, and it isn't easy! I'm glad they got it over the finish line. And I'm hoping that it ends up being everything they intend it to be.

But yeah, I'd love to see reviews and measurements!

Not exactly Fredy....

The input boards are all different - they went to the Panasonic 8K board which has fast switching.
The powers supply has doubled in power (from 100w to 200w), likely because the 8K board needs more grunt.
The main processor has also changed to a faster spec (decreasing boot time etc).
The DAC on the RMC-1 was made by AKG (no longer available due to a factory fire). The RMC-1+ is the Burr Brown / TI PCM1795 in mono mode, which is also being used on the XMC-2+.

Much has changed. Keen to see if it makes any discernible difference.

 

[Fredygump]

Not exactly Fredy....

The input boards are all different - they went to the Panasonic 8K board which has fast switching.
The powers supply has doubled in power (from 100w to 200w), likely because the 8K board needs more grunt.
The main processor has also changed to a faster spec (decreasing boot time etc).
The DAC on the RMC-1 was made by AKG (no longer available due to a factory fire). The RMC-1+ is the Burr Brown / TI PCM1795 in mono mode, which is also being used on the XMC-2+.

Much has changed. Keen to see if it makes any discernible difference.

My money is on them only changing the things they told us about, and anything required to support the upgrade (i.e. power supply).

In photos of the XMC-2, there are individual circuit boards on each output. I'm not an EE, but I expect the D/A conversion happens on these individual circuit boards, not on the main board/ CPU board. I can think of a few reasons why they would want to do that. Emotiva's goal from the beginning was to make their processors upgradeable and future proof, so taking the D/A conversion off of the main board makes it easier to upgrade.

(It could also be these output circuit boards just convert the signal to balanced? But I think the modular design theory is more likely.)

But I guess we'll have to wait for Amir to do his thing.

I'd still like to see an "updated" review of the RMC-1 after the update that improved it's audio performance.

 

[NicS]

They are delivering now with the specs I outlined. Keen to see what Amir says about it.

 

[peng]

They are delivering now with the specs I outlined. Keen to see what Amir says about it.

The specs of the PCM1795 is quite good, but the chip was launched many years ago, was also used in the Marantz AV8801 and Denon AVR-4520, so the design is at least 10-15 years old. Not a problem, but it would have been nice if they used more up to date chips such as the ES9017, 9038Q2M, or AK4497, 4499 or even the older and cheaper AK4490.

 

[NicS]

I’ve questioned Emotiva about this. It seems that they started out promising the AKG DAC before the fire wiped them out. So they resorted to the TI / Burr Brown “safe” option. I’m not really as bothered as I am about the way it’s implemented.

 

[peng]

I think avp and avrs are getting increasingly complex, and there are many things that can go wrong. For my money, I would stick with D+M (only M for avp), Yamaha or even Onkyo’s. Those guys have the resource to deal with such highly sophisticated devices.

 

[NicS]

I’ve owned three AVPs made by Emotiva. The original XMC-1, the RMC-1L and the updated version with the MkII HDMI board. I’m likely to upgrade to the revamped “+” model. For all the hassles I’m still a fan of this company. Especially their customer service.

 

[peng]

I’ve owned three AVPs made by Emotiva. The original XMC-1, the RMC-1L and the updated version with the MkII HDMI board. I’m likely to upgrade to the revamped “+” model. For all the hassles I’m still a fan of this company. Especially their customer service.

If you like the looks and features, and they have now fixed all the bugs, then I can understand why you would want to stick with the brand's. To me, I just don't prefer spending that kind of money on AVPs that have higher distortions (even if still at below the threshold of audibility) than the popular brands that have proven tracking record on being less buggy at launch time.

 

[Lsc]

I’ve owned three AVPs made by Emotiva. The original XMC-1, the RMC-1L and the updated version with the MkII HDMI board. I’m likely to upgrade to the revamped “+” model. For all the hassles I’m still a fan of this company. Especially their customer service.

I’ve also owned 3, UMC200, XMC1 and currently XMC2 and upgraded the hdmi to the new eARC board. While I will likely get the + version, I’m in no hurry. The eARC was the key as I can connect my PS5 directly to my oled tv.

I wanted Emotiva to make an effort to improve the sound quality on the + but I understand as sound quality is not an issue with the XMC2 so they focused on usability and speed.

 

[Fredygump]

Alright, so they published their offical launch video!

I am pleasantly surprised to see a completely re-designed audio board, so audio will definitely be different from before. And all signs are pointing to this one being really good. Of course that is what they want us to think after watching the presentation, but the fact is that companies these days simply do not give this kind of transparency. Nobody tells you the inner working of their components, and you're lucky to get a picture of the interior of a device.

What I'd like to have confirmed is that the RMC-1+ and XMC-2+ are functionally identical, apart from the RMC-1+ having capacity for 3 expansion modules, plus an extra toslink and coax input.

They said they would explain the differences, but they seem to have forgotten.

 

[Lsc]

If the ecc1 can be upgraded to ecc2, that may be all I should have to do vs trading my unit in.

 

[Fredygump]

If the ecc1 can be upgraded to ecc2, that may be all I should have to do vs trading my unit in.

Yes, they said it is a direct replacement. (Not sure if a new power supply is needed for just the ecc2 board. They didn't say.)

The new analog output board is a more in depth upgrade requiring the upgraded power supply. They explained that the new audio board uses class A op-amps that they nicknamed "toasters", which draw more current than their old design, which is why they need the bigger power supply on the new model.

If I had a unit to upgrade, I would be pushing to upgrade the audio board also. I think that is actually a pretty big upgrade. I mean, the Marantz AV 10 (top of the chart with SINAD of 107) is bragging that they used 4 layer PCBs. But Emotiva stepped up to 6 layer PCBs, which could provide even better performance. They're also talking about differential circuitry on the audio board. I guess they were saying that the entire analog circuit is balanced, whereas other devices with balanced outputs process the signal as an unbalanced signal, and convert it to balanced at the output jack. (Well, some send an unbalanced signal through an XLR connector too...) His explanation wasn't super clear to me, but I think that is what he meant.

 

[RickS]

Alright, so they published their offical launch video!

I am pleasantly surprised to see a completely re-designed audio board, so audio will definitely be different from before. And all signs are pointing to this one being really good. Of course that is what they want us to think after watching the presentation, but the fact is that companies these days simply do not give this kind of transparency. Nobody tells you the inner working of their components, and you're lucky to get a picture of the interior of a device.

What I'd like to have confirmed is that the RMC-1+ and XMC-2+ are functionally identical, apart from the RMC-1+ having capacity for 3 expansion modules, plus an extra toslink and coax input.

They said they would explain the differences, but they seem to have forgotten.

Probably deserves a new thread. In any case, per ASR policy, also needs a summary to stay posted here.

 

[Lsc]

Yes, they said it is a direct replacement. (Not sure if a new power supply is needed for just the ecc2 board. They didn't say.)

The new analog output board is a more in depth upgrade requiring the upgraded power supply. They explained that the new audio board uses class A op-amps that they nicknamed "toasters", which draw more current than their old design, which is why they need the bigger power supply on the new model.

If I had a unit to upgrade, I would be pushing to upgrade the audio board also. I think that is actually a pretty big upgrade. I mean, the Marantz AV 10 (top of the chart with SINAD of 107) is bragging that they used 4 layer PCBs. But Emotiva stepped up to 6 layer PCBs, which could provide even better performance. They're also talking about differential circuitry on the audio board. I guess they were saying that the entire analog circuit is balanced, whereas other devices with balanced outputs process the signal as an unbalanced signal, and convert it to balanced at the output jack. (Well, some send an unbalanced signal through an XLR connector too...) His explanation wasn't super clear to me, but I think that is what he meant.

I’m guessing the audio board and HDMI board would require trading in the current unit so it would be a $2000 upgrade that includes the new HDMI board and obviously the ECC2 board.

If the ecc2 is a lower cost upgrade, I’ll most likely do this then buy a + model new with my discount.