Modern AVR’s and Processors - Super Annoying Shortcoming

[smale]

Here’s someone else talking about it, the problem is, it doesn’t behave the way they state in this thread. For me, it doesn’t matter what I set the speaker config to, it won’t let me upmix a 2ch source.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater/comments/klv4mk

Some time ago the YouTube app for Apple TV insisted on that behavior as well. Google fixed it fairly quickly though. On a PC running Windows there is more variables. Audio driver, app, configuration and so. All can handle it their own way

 

[Chrispy]

Doug, are all the avrs you mention using with the same pc? Your friends' that you helped setup?

 

[Blumlein 88]

You’ve got it backwards. Old AVR’s (think early 2000’s) don’t seem to care and will matrix anything using PL2 or DTS Neo.

It’s new AVRs that do this, including my brand new RZ50 and the other receivers I mentioned which are all from the past 10’ish years.

I don't have it backwards. Is this so for one year old devices? I'd assume so. But when did it change? 5 years ago, 10 years ago. So the oldest device you have with the problem tells me if might be a problem for one that old or newer. So I was wondering if my AVR is new enough to see what happens. Probably not as it is 10 years old.

I too think there is something wonky in your setup. Using a linux machine I've run into sending audio over HDMI, and if it is set for 5.1 with a stereo source, no center. If I set it to stereo over HDMI, then I get upmixes with a center channel.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Doug, are all the avrs you mention using with the same pc? Your friends' that you helped setup?

Nope, I’ve got two HTPC’s at home plus the one at my friends, they all do this. Windows 10 Pro. My living room has a basic Sony 7.1 AVR and my dedicated room has the RZ50, it’s consistent across all my setups and configs.

 

[pseudoid]

Prove me wrong.

It is not a game or a debate! I don't think anyone of us are here with an axe to grind or want to prove you right or wrong.
YET:

I press a single button on my remote, the youtube video (TonyBennett/LadyGaga for your experiment) from my NUC10 hdmi feed goes [schzaam!] 3-ch.
I cannot take a photo of the center channel playing but trust me....

But it sucks the mids out of where they belong in my floor-speakers << FWIW >> my center sucks as a center.

RIP: Tony Bennett.

 

[Sal1950]

I just checked with a usb drive into the Denon 4700 directly, no problem using upmixer. Wirelessly hasn't been an issue either.

Doug, You've got me scratching my head here.
My results using a PC running Linux, feeding a bit perfect 2ch stream off my HD to my Denon 4700HD, it upsamples to beautiful 5.2.4 surround with active sound from all 9.1 channels. That is true using either Dolby Surround, DTS-X, or Auro 3D as the processing codec?

 

[Chrispy]

Nope, I’ve got two HTPC’s at home plus the one at my friends, they all do this. Windows 10 Pro. My living room has a basic Sony 7.1 AVR and my dedicated room has the RZ50, it’s consistent across all my setups and configs.

That doesn't mean those particular machines are typical of others otoh. I still say your premise it's the avr/processor is wrong, as demonstrated by the other posters as well as my own experiments/experience. Hopefully it can be sussed out

 

[pseudoid]

But it sucks the mids out of where they belong in my floor-speakers << FWIW >> my center sucks as a center.

RIP: Tony Bennett.

Just so, I don't get a negative reply, I also tried the feed from the NUC10/Win11P via the front panel 3.5mm jack. Same as above [schzaam!] result.
Why do you and your friends all still have Windows10 in your machines, to begin with?

WASAPI? ASIO? ASIO2WASAPI? ASIO4ALL?

OT: Woot; that youtube video with TonyBennett/LadyGaga is legit.

 

[Chrispy]

It is not a game or a debate! I don't think anyone of us are here with an axe to grind or want to prove you right or wrong.
YET:
View attachment 300860
I press a single button on my remote, the youtube video (TonyBennett/LadyGaga for your experiment) from my NUC10 hdmi feed goes [schzaam!] 3-ch.
I cannot take a photo of the center channel playing but trust me....
View attachment 300861
But it sucks the mids out of where they belong in my floor-speakers << FWIW >> my center sucks as a center.

RIP: Tony Bennett.

Many centers suck tho, which do you have?

 

[valerianf]

The same issue may arrive without using a computer.
Example: I am using an Amazon 4K stick for Amazon HD.
As I am using an old avr the stick send a stereo HD audio flux and the avr transform it in 5.0 using Dolby Pro Logic II music with adjustable center spread.
But I am not sure that it would work using a modern avr: to avoid paying royalties, Dolby Laboratories have design a brand new Dolby Surround processing that is unable doing all that Dolby Pro Logic II was capable of!

 

[Chrispy]

The same issue may arrive without using a computer.
Example: I am using an Amazon 4K stick for Amazon HD.
As I am using an old avr the stick send a stereo HD audio flux and the avr transform it in 5.0 using Dolby Pro Logic II music with adjustable center spread.
But I am not sure that it would work using a modern avr: to avoid paying royalties, Dolby Laboratories have design a brand new Dolby Surround processing that is unable doing all that Dolby Pro Logic II was capable of!

Your avr shouldn't arbitrarily upmix 2.0 to 5.0 (5.1 depending on your setup), but you should be able to set it so just 2.0 plays as a source otoh. Some streams are still DD+ even if 2.0. Many avrs do remember your last used sound mode for a particular signal, so if your 2.0 is being upmixed to 5.0 that's more about how you setup your avr. It is hard to compete with the major avr/processor guys on the keeping up with codecs thing, tho.

 

[dlaloum]

I feed my AVR from a HTPC - and that includes my music library - which feeds to the AVR via HDMI as PCM 2.0 - I use the DSU upmixer, and the center channel works fine.

I'm not sure what your problem is, but I am not seeing the issue in my setup.

 

[buz]

My pioneer lx505 (almost identical to your Onkyo) definitely does 3.1 when streaming via builtin chromecast

 

[KMO]

You’ve got it backwards. Old AVR’s (think early 2000’s) don’t seem to care and will matrix anything using PL2 or DTS Neo.

No, because PLII specifically works on 2-channel input. My Denon AVR-4308 (2007) won't offer PLII unless it's actually getting a 2-channel container. The common problem is that described above - devices always outputting 5.1 or 7.1 and blocking selection of PLII. In which case, yes, the only way I'd get centre channel output would be all-channel stereo.

That sounds potentially like what you're suffering from, but it's not a new problem - it's been an issue ever since HDMI allowed multichannel PCM transfer. Source devices are possibly getting worse at not changing output format.

I'm with everyone else - you either have a unique equipment problem or you're misunderstanding something.

I would say it's weird if they even allow upmixing to channels that apparently (from the AVRs point of view) has content. Won't that end up with a total mess if it's fed a proper 5.1 signal?

If anything (early 2000s) did do what Dougey is describing - "matrix anything" - they'd do it by first downmixing, then upmixing again. Which is what's happening with "all-channel stereo". Downmix multichannel to 2 channel, then distribute the 2 channels. My Denon will do that for stereo, all-channel stereo and all its other silly "super stadium" etc modes, but I imagine Dolby put their foot down and said "do not downmix to feed Dolby PLII input", wanting to prevent user error, so there's no way to make that happen inside the AVR (even if you know the other channels are blank due to upstream error).

Edit: Here's the charts from the back of the 4308 manual spelling out that you can't use proper matrix modes on anything other than 2-channel input, only the silly ones. Hence me often having to faff with Windows or PS4 output settings to force 2-channel.

 

[Tre2023]

Look at the charts more carefully. Dolby PLIIX Cinema/Music can be applied to multichannel signals. Look down the chart to "MULTI CH IN + PLIIx CINEMA" or "MULTI CH IN + PLIIx MUSIC". The "MULTI CH IN" designates the input signal and " + PLIIx CINEMA " and " + PLIIx MUSIC " indicate Dolby Pro Logic IIx processing is being applied to the multichannel signal.

 

[susanstone]

You may want to check 'Reason for Second Review' in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4700-avr-review-updated.14493/

HDMI source needs to be 2 channel PCM. If HDMI source is 8 channels PCM with only L/R configured, AVR wouldn't know what to do.

 

[KMO]

Look at the charts more carefully. Dolby PLIIX Cinema/Music can be applied to multichannel signals. Look down the chart to "MULTI CH IN + PLIIx CINEMA" or "MULTI CH IN + PLIIx MUSIC". The "MULTI CH IN" designates the input signal and " + PLIIx CINEMA " and " + PLIIx MUSIC " indicate Dolby Pro Logic IIx processing is being applied to the multichannel signal.

Look at the charts more carefully.

That's PLIIx to matrix the rear channels, and only applies when you actually have 4 surrounds. It does not apply to PLII.

PLIIx is actually two separate things under one name - a 2->7 upmix for 2-channel inputs and a 2->4 upmix for the 2 surround channels in a multichannel mix. All the rows saying "Pro Logic IIx" are the former, and the rows saying "+PLIIx" are the latter.

So yes, you can apply the surround-expanding-only form of PLIIx to multi-channel inputs, but not PLII or the 2->7 form of PLIIx. The surround-expanding-only PLIIx will not touch the L, C, or R channels or speakers, so is not relevant to the OP's question.

(And nor does it let me upmix 2-channel sources in a 5.1 container. I guess if they put the 2 channels as SL/SR in 5.1 I could spread it across SL/SBL/SBR/SR!? Yay?)

The "MULTI CH IN" designates the input signal and " + PLIIx CINEMA " and " + PLIIx MUSIC " indicate Dolby Pro Logic IIx processing is being applied to the multichannel signal.

That's clearly not the way the indication works, if you look at the rest of the table. The actual input is displayed elsewhere in the the UI (or as the column headings in the table.)

When you see an input in the mode name, that indicates that it's being output without further upmixing/mangling. So if you see "STEREO" there, it means it's outputting non-upmixed stereo. If you see "DOLBY DIGITAL" it's because a Dolby Digital signal is being output non-upmixed. You don't see "STEREO + PLIIx CINEMA" or "DOLBY DIGITAL + 7CH STEREO".

Observe that the "+" rows only occur for PLIIx with multichannel input. They indicate the fact that the front channels are untouched while the surrounds are processed - it's a half-and-half mode unlike any other.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

You may want to check 'Reason for Second Review' in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4700-avr-review-updated.14493/

HDMI source needs to be 2 channel PCM. If HDMI source is 8 channels PCM with only L/R configured, AVR wouldn't know what to do.

This is definitely what’s happening to me. The issue is that it’s happening even if I change Windows to “Stereo”, when it should only be happening in 5.1/7.1/Atmos.

At this point I guess my options include trying Windows 11 or some other operating system. The issue is persistent for me across multiple Win 10 Pro configs.

 

[KMO]

This is definitely what’s happening to me. The issue is that it’s happening even if I change Windows to “Stereo”, when it should only be happening in 5.1/7.1/Atmos.

At this point I guess my options include trying Windows 11 or some other operating system. The issue is persistent for me across multiple Win 10 Pro configs.

The issue is probably going to be audio-driver specific.

Windows definitely supports changing channel configuration for HDMI (or any) audio output, but presumably your output device is having a problem - or has some sort of local configuration that makes it not follow Windows' settings.

What device are you using? I don't think you've mentioned it. The answer will likely be in its configuration.

 

[Tre2023]

You are correct @KMO , it is already a multichannel PCM signal that does not need anything but PLIIx applied to it to get audio to the surround back speakers if it is a multichannel PCM 5.1 signal. Yes, the vertical row indicates sound modes. They are also indicative of the input signal. Multichannel PCM will display as MULTI CH IN. If it is a 5.1 signal, PLIIx can be applied to it so that sound is output from the surround back speakers. Matrix mode could also be applied to it. Denon has since removed their non matrix mode that simply duplicated the surround signal to the surround back channels. I liked it. Notice the " + " when applying PLIIx to DD 4,5, 5.1 or DTS 5.1 signals. Anyway, not the issue @Dougey_Jones is actually having here and the RZ50 has the new Dolby Surround up mixer.

I also have this issue with my Onkyo and Mac. If my Mac is configured for multichannel output using the Audio MIDI Setup, 2.0 content will be sent out as multichannel PCM 7.1, if set to 8 channel output, and sound will be output only from the front channels, though bass management works outside of Pure Direct and Direct mode. I think sound from the surrounds was mentioned by @Dougey_Jones but I'd be willing to bet it was in Dolby Surround mode and it bled into other channels as usual. These machines do not work like disc players when sending two channel or multichannel signals. Put a DD 2.0 DVD into a disc player and it will output a DD 2.0 bitstream, or a PCM 2.0 signal if converted, over HDMI. Put that same disc in my Mac configured for multichannel output and sound will be heard only from the front channels when applying Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X/Virtual:X. "All Channel Stereo" and "Mono Music" will be the only modes that will produce sound from ALL speakers. If I change the output from 8 channels to 2 channels and set the speaker configuration to Stereo in the Audio MIDI Setup in my Mac, the receiver will recognize and display a PCM 2.0 signal and the up mixers will actually work. Configure for Stereo but forget to change from 8 channel output to 2 channel output and the Dolby and DTS up mixers will still not work when applied. Yet, regardless of the settings, AC-3 Passthrough can be selected in the Apple TV app for Mac and the Dolby and DTS up mixers can be applied and actually work with DD 5.1 signals but not PCM 2.0 signals. There are many other ugly audio characteristics concerning Macs but that is for another thread.

@Dougey_Jones is not configuring his Onkyo for 2.0 so the Denon X4700 issues don't really apply here. Multichannel PCM signals from a disc player or certain streamers will not have this issue with the RZ50's up mixers and a 5.1, 5.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1, or 7.1.2 configuration. I haven't used Windows since 7 so can't comment on 10. The Dolby Access app for Windows and XBOX makes Atmos available using Dolby MAT and also contains a Dolby Surround up mixer, or, at least it does on the XBOX. So, when I use it on my XBOX and it up mixes a non Atmos track, my Onkyo will actually display Dolby Surround as the input signal as well as the sound mode if I select the Dolby Surround up mixer in the receiver. This concerns games and streaming service app output has changed in the past with updates. I just don't use them in the XBOX anymore. Those far more familiar with Windows 10 PCs and the Dolby Access app may be more helpful concerning output settings. But, I do know how frustrating it is to try and up mix a two channel signal using Dolby or DTS and only be able to get sound from all channels using All Channel Stereo or Mono Music. I have to set my Mac to 2 channel output and Stereo for up mixers to work properly but that raises others issues. But, again, those issues are for another thread but it is annoying to sit on the couch and browse forums on the TV while at the same time watching Youtube videos and not be able to steer the dialogue to the center channel with an up mixer if 8 channel output is set in the Mac. Best of luck to @Dougey_Jones and anybody else with similar issues.