MM vs MI vs MC

[JP]

Distortion measurements we’ve seen may give some advantage to one cartridge or another, but don’t seem to vary wildly. Maybe I just haven’t seen enough yet.

Also all over the board in the examples I've measured.

The last new cart I bought was an AT 740ML. At 150pF and 36k the peaking response ~11kHz isn't offensive. Seem rather difficult to find flat cartridges today.

 

[mackat]

This cartridge sports an Ogura PA 3/30 μm stylus on a pure boron cantilever.

Phasemation PP-200: (and in case you're wondering, no, I did not pay anywhere near the ridiculously inflated US MSRP of nearly $1800)

 

[mackat]

Here is the flattest I could get my Shure V15 V-MR with recently purchased NOS VN5MR stylus. To achieve this result, I used the DB Systems DBP-6 loading kit to add 350 pf.

I do not know what the Sutherland 20/20's input capacitance is, as it is not listed anywhere. Based on the frequency responses I've seen from various cartridges, I estimate that it is relatively low. Based on this, the total capacitance including interconnects should be around 400-500 pf.

Note that this was measured at 1.3g, which is .05g above the recommended max 1.25g VTF. I did not realize that at the time.

I'm not sure what the tangled 2nd and 3rd harmonic after 10k on the right channel measurement means, if anything.

 

[JP]

The question of test record accuracy was raised on another forum: As test record sweeps vary, some appreciably, how do you know which are the most accurate?

If you take a 20kHz tone and play it at half speed, you get a 10kHz tone at -6dB (velocity transducer). Therefore if you've the ability to ramp the platter speed down 50%, you can create a 20kHz to 10kHz sweep at -6dB/octave. I happen to have an SP-10MK3 for which I modified the pitch control to do -50%, +20%, and can execute a fairly well controlled ramp to -50% in about four seconds.

Taking the 20kHz spot from CBS STR-170, I created such a file. Below is the plot with a reference line to make the deviation easier to see, which is rather minimal. This cartridge also measures "flat" on the TRS-1007, which was the test record in question. A transfer function could be created to find the error in a test record and even normalize it, but this was an exercise of Good Enough, which having a known "flat" cartridge made rather easy.

 

[mackat]

On the other hand, an iron core cross, where the typical MC-coils are wound upon, produces a significant amount of "Barkhausen-effect noise", when iron moves in the strong stationary magnetic field. Easily recognisable when the load on the tip is varied by e .g. the tonearm lift on a still-standing platter (e. g. entry level MC Benz ACE-S).
Sounds like a worn-out car suspension and is caused by magnetic (Weiss'-)domain-borders shifting around in the iron, while the changing field is being picked up by the coils.
Therefore, according to my opinion, when investing in MC, go for the really expensive iron free coil carrier designs, e. g. made from ruby (which of course have the drawback of yielding only limited electrical dynamic range)...MP (moving permalloy; also located in the stationary magnetic field) seems less susceptible to this effect from my experience with Nagaoka´s MP500...
(check out here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkhausen_effect ;

)

I just came across this post, and I am pretty sure that this is what I've been hearing from my Ortofon MC 20 Super SE. The noise is audible when the stylus is removed from the record, as well as when it is set down on a stationary record. I increased the volume on this recording to make it more audible. Let me know what you guys think:

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voca.ro

I have been planning on sending it back to Thakker for evaluation, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Would this likely be considered defective? Why does it occur with some cartridges and not others? I have heard the same kind of noise to varying degrees on a Grado Prestige Blue (MI), Technics EPC-100CMK3 (MM), and even very slightly on an Audio-Technica AT-VM95ML (MM).

Edit: I also found a threat over at VinylEngine on the subject https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=108832

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Hi guys. I’m trying to weigh out what you all have achieved here vs the 800 gorilla in the chain… the media itself.

I admittedly have not fully looked into the matching that you guys are doing, and it looks well executed. I know I would not have been able to pull it off, but for me I believe it would take some of the joy out of my vinyl playback. On the other hand I do respect it, and I do get it, and may even dabble once I get some other priorities out-of-the-way as far as my room goes.

I stated on the other thread that I follow that I believe that the Parks Puffin with it’s digital out gets me to 90% of this. On the other hand I could be wrong, but I know the puffin has revolutionized the way I listen to vinyl, even with its mediocre SINAD I don’t think we’ll ever hear it because of the media, as long as ADC clipping is controlled.

Thanks for allowing me to be skeptical LOL.

Edit;

By the way I have a few of the vintage cartridges that some of you have, and it wasn’t until I got rid of the magnetic sub platter in my deck and went with a good (IMO) MC cartridge did I hear a whole lot of difference between the lot of them. Do I like neutral? Probably not, but I’m going to experiment with that at my listening position.

 

[JP]

Step 1: define your goals.

 

[JP]

Here is the flattest I could get my Shure V15 V-MR with recently purchased NOS VN5MR stylus. To achieve this result, I used the DB Systems DBP-6 loading kit to add 350 pf.

I do not know what the Sutherland 20/20's input capacitance is, as it is not listed anywhere. Based on the frequency responses I've seen from various cartridges, I estimate that it is relatively low. Based on this, the total capacitance including interconnects should be around 400-500 pf.

Note that this was measured at 1.3g, which is .05g above the recommended max 1.25g VTF. I did not realize that at the time.

I'm not sure what the tangled 2nd and 3rd harmonic after 10k on the right channel measurement means, if anything.





View attachment 224298
View attachment 224299

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Step 1: define your goals.

Yeah i thought I was in the endzone…. then I stumbled upon this thread. Not that I’m unhappy with my vinyl playback, but I’ll see where this goes, it is intriguing indeed.

Like I said my goal right now is to button up my listening room, and then if I’m really brave I’ll do some REW measurements. I just don’t want to obsess over it, and with my size room, I know there is a little bit of muddy bass at the listening position(s) but I’m confident I’ll find a middle ground. My vinyl playback is more than adequate in my opinion.

I’m not striving for perfection, because that will just take all the joy out of this for me.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

View attachment 226167
View attachment 226168

Is it your opinion that if any cartridge achieves a flat frequency response, or if we can use what you guys did and get a flat frequency response from any cartridge we choose… Will they sound the same?

 

[Deleted member 50971]

By the way I know my profile picture shows a nice shiny moving coil cartridge, but I do enjoy a variety of MM,MI, and MC cartridges. They can all sound very pleasing to my ears.

 

[eliash]

I just came across this post, and I am pretty sure that this is what I've been hearing from my Ortofon MC 20 Super SE. The noise is audible when the stylus is removed from the record, as well as when it is set down on a stationary record. I increased the volume on this recording to make it more audible. Let me know what you guys think:

Vocaroo | Online voice recorder

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voca.ro

I have been planning on sending it back to Thakker for evaluation, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Would this likely be considered defective? Why does it occur with some cartridges and not others? I have heard the same kind of noise to varying degrees on a Grado Prestige Blue (MI), Technics EPC-100CMK3 (MM), and even very slightly on an Audio-Technica AT-VM95ML (MM).

Edit: I also found a threat over at VinylEngine on the subject https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=108832

That was me on Vinyl Engine, same U/N. When I got aware of this noise, I discussed it there and then after long time found the cause by myself.
I realised the existence of the noise when dropping the tip into a urethane pad tip cleaner, which should be practically noiseless. At that time the Thorens lift also allowed me to move the tip up and down a bit...unfortunately I did not have a good ADC at that time, so I did not record, but it sounded similar to the wiki noise.
In your audio, you have to be careful not to mix contact noise from touching and lifting the tip with this one. Ideally, when possible with the individual tonearm lift, is to carefully play with it slowly, not losing tip contact and listen.
I guess, when the volume of the noise is significantly lower than perfect idle track noise, you are on the safe side, because the tip movement should then be less. As I wrote before, from my perspective, the Benz behaviour was borderline (otherwise a great cart, considered to buy it again, but it was not available!) and my current "workhorse" Nagaoka MP is quiet enough not to worry.
Interesting, but actually irrelevant for the discussed disturbance, was listening to the decay of the noise, using full amplification. Some faint (clicking) noise could be heard even a few seconds after stopping the tip movement. Finally, acknowleding what I was hearing, brought me to the idea of the cause - moving magnetic Weiss domains...

Late remark:
Just downloaded the audio and listened via headphone on the stereo. The initial clicking was gone, it was my PC generating some initial noise which sounded like a needle drop. The recorded noise indeed sounds like what I heard, even though the decay in the recording is slower, than I remember, but this could be due to the tonearm lift damping.

Inspired by your recording, I did one on my own:

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voca.ro

You hear a Nagaoka MP500 tip dropping into the a. m. urethane pad @10s, then I tried to move the tip up and down with the lift with max. amplitude. Be careful, I lost contact to the pad in between and lifted harsh at the end. Interesting is the fact that the right channel is more affected than the left from the vertical movement. 8cm/s (1KHz, per channel) vinyl reference level is around -10 to -11dBfs in the recording, max undistorted Nagaoka tracking is around -2 to -3dBfs (~90µm). Last tip lift click is clipped at 0dBfs. This is quite loud because the urethane pad holds the tip firmly and should remove any dirt...

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Is it your opinion that if any cartridge achieves a flat frequency response, or if we can use what you guys did and get a flat frequency response from any cartridge we choose… Will they sound the same?

No one wants to walk the plank on this one? LOL!

Shouldn’t they sound the same, if we achieve a flat frequency response, and level matched… Shouldn’t all cartridges sound the same?

I know those are fighting words on many forms, but I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.

For instance… will my Shure V-15 type V (with a good original MR styli) sound the same as my Stanton 881s (with a good original Shibata styli)?

I have never done any needle drops between the two, but surely they sound different… but would they with the same FR and level matched?

They should sound the same in my opinion.

 

[Tom C]

There seems to be quite a bit of agreement that different stylus profiles track better or worse, and with lesser or greater distortion. If so, that should be one source of differences in how they sound.

 

[JP]

No one wants to walk the plank on this one? LOL!

I walk planks all day every day - just haven't gotten to this one yet. Will.

 

[Holmz]

No one wants to walk the plank on this one? LOL!

Shouldn’t they sound the same, if we achieve a flat frequency response, and level matched… Shouldn’t all cartridges sound the same?

…

Are the harmonics also identical?
Or just overall the FR amplitude?

Is the phase identical? And the time domain performance?

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Are the harmonics also identical?
Or just overall the FR amplitude?

Is the phase identical? And the time domain performance?

It was a simple question… if the frequency response is the same, and they are level matched, will all cartridges sound the same?

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I’ll answer what I think, the science side of me wants to believe that they will all sound the same all things being equal. But the experience side of me says that a cartridge can’t be treated like a DAC, and things like tracking error, inner groove distortion, stylus profile, how many hours are on the stylus are variables that are very hard to control. To me, the only way to get a flat frequency response continuously, would be some kind of an automated program that could somehow take into account those variables and compensate for them. Is a flat frequency response achievable from the start of an LP to the very end?

Just my two cents.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I’ll add one more thing to this, and I really don’t have a dog in the race I’m just trying to learn.

Lets say we achieve a flat frequency response, via a phono preamp, computer program, whatever it may be. I would just throw my arms up in the air and spin a CD. Because half the fun of spinning vinyl for me is, or at one point was changing cartridges to see how different they sound. It would be like taking a 57 Chevy and slamming it, yes it’s cool, but yes you may have killed its original value. I don’t want my V15 to sound like my 881 but that’s just me.

Thanks for allowing me to post here guys, I appreciate it.

 

[eliash]

I walk planks all day every day - just haven't gotten to this one yet. Will.

I even lay them out...