MM vs MI vs MC

[dennis h]

It was a simple question… if the frequency response is the same, and they are level matched, will all cartridges sound the same?

And what is your definition of "frequency response is the same" and "level matched"?
How close is close enough ?

 

[Deleted member 50971]

And what is your definition of "frequency response is the same" and "level matched"?
How close is close enough ?

My thoughts are “if” several different cartridges achieved the same frequency response adjust their output to match… they may sound similiar.

I’m flipping around on this because I have some doubts it’s continuously achievable because of all the variables involved. I mean if you use the phono preamp with some kind of correction in it, or a program that adjusts everything to level the playing field so to speak… where’s the fun in that? But I do understand why the guys in this thread are pursuing that, i’m just saying for me it would take all the joy out of it. Going to the Parks Puffin was a big leap for a guy that likes my signal chain all analog. But there’s no denying it was a leap forward for my setup.

Why not just DSP on the backend and get a flat FR right at the MLP? I’m actually looking into something like the miniDSP flex or some kind of room correction for 2-channel. My AVP has Audyssey but for two channel I like it disengaged and I use the EQ. I purchased a Klark Teknic all analog EQ, that has some parametric EQ settings in there also, I’ve yet mess around with it, but I may. I would love Amir to test it before I do because if it measures poorly I don’t want it, and maybe that’s not so important for vinyl but it would be using it with a good DAC.

 

[Audiofire]

Cartridges are mechanical with small parts that allow different kinds of distortion. Not just frequency response. Digitizing some records and comparing with the CD or other digital release is an interesting approach. Then, EQ can compensate in record digitizations.

 

[BDWoody]

It was a simple question… if the frequency response is the same, and they are level matched, will all cartridges sound the same?

I would say no...we are talking about a tiny little motor, and distortion profiles would pretty surely be very different.

A ruler flat frequency response, but one cartridge has 1% distortion at 800Hz and one has 10%, they likely won't sound the same.

When you are dealing with transducers like speakers, headphones and cartridges it isn't quite as easy to characterize them audibly through basic measurements as it is with most SS electronics.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I would say no...we are talking about a tiny little motor, and distortion profiles would pretty surely be very different.

A ruler flat frequency response, but one cartridge has 1% distortion at 800Hz and one has 10%, they likely won't sound the same.

When you are dealing with transducers like speakers, headphones and cartridges it isn't quite as easy to characterize them audibly through basic measurements as it is with most SS electronics.

I believe your right, and that’s been my experience over the years. Although I have never tried to achieve a flat frequency response right from the get go.

 

[Audiofire]

I’m just trying to learn.

Not sure if you have seen this Ortofon patent that talked about what can cause distortion in cartridges:

MM vs MI vs MC

On the other hand, an iron core cross, where the typical MC-coils are wound upon, produces a significant amount of "Barkhausen-effect noise... The degree that these 'problems' influence what one hears in the living room is a big question. What we hear often results from a combination of...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Not sure if you have seen this Ortofon patent that talked about what can cause distortion in cartridges:

MM vs MI vs MC

On the other hand, an iron core cross, where the typical MC-coils are wound upon, produces a significant amount of "Barkhausen-effect noise... The degree that these 'problems' influence what one hears in the living room is a big question. What we hear often results from a combination of...

audiosciencereview.com

Thanks, I’m going to make that part of my morning read.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Not sure if you have seen this Ortofon patent that talked about what can cause distortion in cartridges:

MM vs MI vs MC

On the other hand, an iron core cross, where the typical MC-coils are wound upon, produces a significant amount of "Barkhausen-effect noise... The degree that these 'problems' influence what one hears in the living room is a big question. What we hear often results from a combination of...

audiosciencereview.com

Interesting article, thanks again. Ortofon is one of those companies that know us vinyl guys like to read, and there is no shortage of literature on their website. I believe they do moving magnet, and moving coil very well. I have their Ortofon black and it slightly edges out my old Shure and Stanton cartridge’s as far my preference goes, but there’s no doubt that I still like my vintage cartridges.

When I first move into moving coil cartridges, I went the way of probably most moving magnet guys, and dabbled with the Denon high output 110, and their DL-301 mkii. My initial impression was they are OK, but they sounded much like my moving magnet carts IMO. It wasn’t until I tried the Dynavector Karat 17DX was I wowed, and I took a chance on eBay and got one lightly used for less than half price.

For me I just wanted to know without listening to all the chatter online, and I also found out that you don’t need a $3000 tonearm to match it to.

Do I like a flat FR? Probably not, but that Dynavector sure sounds good anyway. When I get done with my room which should be in the next couple of months, I’m going to take some measurements and see exactly what everything is doing. I have some boomy bass at my MLP and I would like to smooth that out a bit.

 

[Audiofire]

I bought a Technics SL-220 turntable with the Technics EPC-270C cartridge, after the data about moving mass for the Technics EPC cartridges was shared. It is after my post I just linked above. Big thanks to @JP

The old Ortofon cartridges might have been pioneering, but I don't think the modern Ortofon products are good anymore. Glad for the Ortofon pioneers, but the modern company has some unfortunate audiophoolery.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I bought a Technics SL-220 turntable with the Technics EPC-270C cartridge, after the data about moving mass for the Technics EPC cartridges was shared. It is after my post I just linked above. Big thanks to @JP

The old Ortofon cartridges might have been pioneering, but I don't think the modern Ortofon products are good anymore. Glad for the Ortofon pioneers, but the modern company has some unfortunate audiophoolery.

That’s why I said there’s no shortage of literature on their website, and it’s all about marketing. That being said their 2m black series is done well, but I cannot vouch for their other offerings.

Sounds like a nice turntable, how do you like that combination?

 

[Bob from Florida]

It was a simple question… if the frequency response is the same, and they are level matched, will all cartridges sound the same?

Well, if the new Technics integrated's phono preamp works as advertised the differences might be minimized. From Technics below.

Intelligent Phono EQ​

The Intelligent Phono EQ mounted in the SU-R1000 utilizes the sound quality improvement technology for DSP, which Technics has accumulated through the development of LAPC, in order to realize high sound quality not possible with analogue Phono-EQ. This technology consists of three parts: 1. Accurate EQ Curve, 2. Crosstalk Canceller and 3. Response Optimizer. These functions can be turned ON/OFF to suit the user’s preference.

Accurate EQ Curve – Madepossible by hybridanalogue/digital circuitdesign​

An accurate EQ curve is achieved by a hybrid analogue-digital system. The high-gain low-pass filter (LPF) performs analogue processing, while high frequencies are raised after the A/D conversion. The use of the 40-dB LPF(Low-pass filter) in the analogue region suppresses the bit loss during digital filter processing, and high frequencies are raised with high accuracy in the digital region to achieve a high S/N ratio.

Crosstalk Canceller - Formeasurement andimprovement of crosstalkcharacteristic unique toeach cartridge​

This function measures the crosstalk characteristic of the installed cartridge by using the crosstalk measuring signal recorded on the Calibration Record bundled with the SU-R1000. It then performs reverse-correction using the built-in DSP to achieve significant improvement of the crosstalk characteristic. This results in a more precise sound image and a wider sound ambience.

PHONO Response Optimiser - For correction of disturbance in cartridge frequency characteristics​

This function measures the frequency characteristics of the installed pickup cartridge by using a TSP (Time Stretched Pulse) signal recorded on the bundled Calibration Record, and corrects characteristics disturbance. It corrects the effect of impedance matching between the pickup cartridge and the phono equalizer to reveal the true sound quality of the cartridge. This technology aims to improve sound quality by avoiding a selector such as a switch in the high-sensitivity phono input line for the removal of the possibility of noise disturbance.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Well, if the new Technics integrated's phono preamp works as advertised the differences might be minimized. From Technics below.

Intelligent Phono EQ​

The Intelligent Phono EQ mounted in the SU-R1000 utilizes the sound quality improvement technology for DSP, which Technics has accumulated through the development of LAPC, in order to realize high sound quality not possible with analogue Phono-EQ. This technology consists of three parts: 1. Accurate EQ Curve, 2. Crosstalk Canceller and 3. Response Optimizer. These functions can be turned ON/OFF to suit the user’s preference.

Accurate EQ Curve – Madepossible by hybridanalogue/digital circuitdesign​

An accurate EQ curve is achieved by a hybrid analogue-digital system. The high-gain low-pass filter (LPF) performs analogue processing, while high frequencies are raised after the A/D conversion. The use of the 40-dB LPF(Low-pass filter) in the analogue region suppresses the bit loss during digital filter processing, and high frequencies are raised with high accuracy in the digital region to achieve a high S/N ratio.

Crosstalk Canceller - Formeasurement andimprovement of crosstalkcharacteristic unique toeach cartridge​

This function measures the crosstalk characteristic of the installed cartridge by using the crosstalk measuring signal recorded on the Calibration Record bundled with the SU-R1000. It then performs reverse-correction using the built-in DSP to achieve significant improvement of the crosstalk characteristic. This results in a more precise sound image and a wider sound ambience.

PHONO Response Optimiser - For correction of disturbance in cartridge frequency characteristics​

This function measures the frequency characteristics of the installed pickup cartridge by using a TSP (Time Stretched Pulse) signal recorded on the bundled Calibration Record, and corrects characteristics disturbance. It corrects the effect of impedance matching between the pickup cartridge and the phono equalizer to reveal the true sound quality of the cartridge. This technology aims to improve sound quality by avoiding a selector such as a switch in the high-sensitivity phono input line for the removal of the possibility of noise disturbance.

So basically they solved every problem plaguing us vinyl guys for the last 60 years, and rolled it into one package?

I’m sure it sounds fine, but there’s a lot of marketing in that article IMO. Also in my opinion, we never know how somethings going to sound until we get it in our room. Again they know us audiophiles are readers, and like I said I’m sure it sounds great.

Where is the fun in not first spending $10,000 to get to this point? Just kidding.

 

[Bob from Florida]

So basically they solved every problem plaguing us vinyl guys for the last 60 years, and rolled it into one package?

I’m sure it sounds fine, but there’s a lot of marketing in that article IMO. Also in my opinion, we never know how somethings going to sound until we get it in our room. Again they know us audiophiles are readers, and like I said I’m sure it sounds great.

Where is the fun in not first spending $10,000 to get to this point? Just kidding.

I think it is interesting that they spent R&D money doing this for what many considered a "dead" format. No idea if it actually works.

 

[Audiofire]

Sounds like a nice turntable, how do you like that combination?

I haven't restored it yet, but have the service manual. The total price was less than 100 dollars for the turntable that still had the original cartridge. That's why I don't want to buy expensive cartridges anymore, when I can just scoop vintage goods up, restore them and sell with a profit margin. I didn't plan to keep the turntable. It was just part of the deal that was in my local area.

I already had a Technics SL-Q3 with the original 207C cartridge and inherited a Technics SL-23 with some basic cartridge. They don't have a JICO SAS available at the moment, but the 270C has. This works perfectly with my Yamaha C-80 preamp that has two phono inputs. It will be perfect to have both an elliptical and SAS profile. The elliptical one for very worn records and masking some undesirable imperfections.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I think it is interesting that they spent R&D money doing this for what many considered a "dead" format. No idea if it actually works.

I think there’s a lot more people spinning vinyl than I/we realize. If you listen to the chatter online and the against vinyl crowd, no one would ever dare play such an inferior media. There is a time when I want perfect sound, and there’s a time when I want to try to get my vinyl playback sound as good as it can. For me I’m there, and I know not everyone is going to like how mine sounds, and that’s OK. I feel no need to defend my preferences, especially to people that are dead set against it.

You guys are doing a great service to the ones that don’t get or understand just how good vinyl can be. I welcome any new talk (actual working tweaks) about the subject, especially when most of what we have in our vinyl rigs has been perfected for decades.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I think there’s a lot more people spinning vinyl than I/we realize. If you listen to the chatter online and the against vinyl crowd, no one would ever dare play such an inferior media. There is a time when I want perfect sound, and there’s a time when I want to try to get my vinyl playback sound as good as it can. For me I’m there, and I know not everyone is going to like how mine sounds, and that’s OK. I feel no need to defend my preferences, especially to people that are dead set against it.

You guys are doing a great service to the ones that don’t get or understand just how good vinyl can be. I welcome any new talk (actual working tweaks) about the subject, especially when most of what we have in our vinyl rigs has been perfected for decades.

I never gave up my vinyl, but the level some of the folks go to with measurements and testing is astonishing! Hopefully, there is still time for listening to music at the end of the day.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I never gave up my vinyl, but the level some of the folks go to with measurements and testing is astonishing! Hopefully, there is still time for listening to music at the end of the day.

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. I get it, and I lived it for years, and if I want to step up my vinyl experience where do I go from here? My original point was if my ultimate goal is to get a flat FR at my listening position, why would I do it twice?

All the power to the ones that want to do it, but I’m with you, I’m listening to the music at this point.

 

[anmpr1]

...if I want to step up my vinyl experience where do I go from here?

Where? Well, JJ, if you've pretty much done the analog thing both there and back, there's really only one place you can go from where you are. Come over with your soldering iron and help me get this thing working.

I'm on a roll. Recently got continuity from an old Grace 707 that was having the hiccups. I'm happy about that. But this? I have to tell you, I don't think you've ever passed the audition until you've worked with one of these! I understand it was originally conceived/designed in Australia, manufactured in Japan, later modded in the US of A. The question to ask about all that is, 'why'? But I don't ask questions anymore. Mostly because I don't want to hear the answer.

It's my next project. Might make me give up analog. Entirely possible.

PS: if anyone has any idea where exactly the black ground wire from the plug-in base into the arm should be soldered, I'd be happy to know that.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Where? Well, JJ, if you've pretty much done the analog thing both there and back, there's really only one place you can go from where you are. Come over with your soldering iron and help me get this thing working.

I'm on a roll. Recently got continuity from an old Grace 707 that was having the hiccups. I'm happy about that. But this? I have to tell you, I don't think you've ever passed the audition until you've worked with one of these! I understand it was originally conceived/designed in Australia, manufactured in Japan, later modded in the US of A. The question to ask about all that is, 'why'? But I don't ask questions anymore. Mostly because I don't want to hear the answer.

It's my next project. Might make me give up analog. Entirely possible.

PS: if anyone has any idea where exactly the black ground wire from the plug-in base into the arm should be soldered, I'd be happy to know that.

View attachment 227159

Nice, but I’m afraid I can’t further your vinyl experience lol.

Shouldn’t the harness just plug into the base and you’re done? I have no experience with those arms, but that’s how my other ones are.

I have a Magnepan tonearm that I have yet to set up just because my current SME sounds so good I don’t know if it’s worth the trouble. It was a good investment however… so I bought two.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Many aren’t aware that Magnepan made a tonearm right here in the US, and it was pretty advanced for back in the day.