me geithain rl-901k2 vs ATC SCM150ASL vs Genelec 8351b + W371A vs Ultimate Preamp

[TimVG]

There is a reason why we see so many high end studios with ATC

Yeah. It's called dealer margin.


*****

ATC makes fine loudspeakers using good parts. They are simply a bit outdated technically, although as I understand it, this is part of their business model/appeal. They absolutely could make much better objective performing loudspeaker if they wanted to.

 

[DSJR]

No it isn't too low for the ATC 3" driver which is flat from 400Hz, so 380 will be ideal for the crossover (as ATC obviously know having made it for decades). Have you seen the size of its motor?
The Genelec 3" driver is used down to 67Hz in the 8010 fwiw but obviously nowhere near the loudness level of the ATC at 380Hz though amazingly its distortion doesn't get hideous until around 150Hz.

The ATC mid dome does need VERY careful active crossover design though - it's a big compromise here and not sure the revised wave guide done some years back fixes it. Don't even consider passive ATC three ways (leave them to the far eastern luxury-Fi market where the case veneers and the set up of the audio 'shrine' mean more) as the dome cannot be optimised.

One thing for long term which IS important to use on the domestic side is getting the electronics serviced later on and in the case of the ATC 15" driver away from the UK, the surrounds refoamed. Fifteen to twenty years seems to be about right for the life of the surround depending on climate and I doubt it'll be cheap to do as and when...

As for being outdated. I'm no longer with the ATC In-crowd as I'm basically retired from audio retail and haven't visited the factory for many years now sadly - which contracted hugely (but seemed to modernise as a result) when big studios started to close and small monitors with subs became more usual. The new team there do seem to be looking to the future though judging by the job vacancies they've had in recent years. I doubt you'll find them just sitting on their backsides waiting for orders and resting on past glories. Money is key to all of this with small companies as I'm sure it is to the other speaker makers discussed in this thread. ATC currently make their own dedicated electronics and don't just shove a load of Hypex or whatever modules in... I readily admit I'm a fanboy and love the compromises and balance of much of their current crop and rather like many recordings mixed and mastered on the brand (so basically, I'd politely suggest they're easy tools for the engineer to listen through). The bluff appearance appeals too to be honest and dispersion and so on was pretty good back in the days before heavy computer engineering and so on of current whizz-bang specials with all the latest tech inside.

P.S. I was rather horrified when retail prices shot up in the noughties for this brand, but they've since stayed stable as everyone else has caught up. I wouldn't say dealer margins were huge, but I was in the domestic side where other UK based speaker makers offered far more to the dealer and admittedly some rather less.

 

[pierre]

I got 8361s in 5x8 room with opening and lacking bass . @pierre do you think 2x 7370 would be reaching decent spl before bottoming out ?

Genelec recommend the larger one (and uber expensive one) 7380. Other people here are using cheaper and better subwoofers. You will loose the convenience of GLM but a miniDSP will fix it. If you have the space go with large subwoofers from Rythmik or similar.

2x7370 will of course already create many issues with your neighborhood but you will max them out relatively easily. One of the thing they do well is to sustain high level for hours without over heating.

 

[Logix]

It seems you have joined the wrong forum? This is not place for such statements - this is a science based forum.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iles-posting-at-asr-for-the-first-time.17598/

Assuming the main interest in this forum is sound, I think I'm in the right place.
I also assume Kii Three is what you consider a "science based" speaker but i'm still choosing my monitors by ear before anything else, and to me they just didn't sound as good / natural, so am I supposed to buy them because they are "based on science"?
Are you basically saying that you can buy your speakers without even hearing them? can you tell how a speaker is going to sound only by looking at their measurements?
If not, than we are back to the basics, you choose your speakers by ear and it's mostly personal taste.
KH 310 is a monitor that got a very good review here on ASR and I just ordered a pair that I should get in a few days, my ATCs are big and heavy and I still need a subwoofer with them so I'm looking for other alternatives, and I really hope they will be better than the ATC's but if not... with all due respect to the science, I will have to send them back.

 

[Logix]

Yeah. It's called dealer margin.


*****

ATC makes fine loudspeakers using good parts. They are simply a bit outdated technically, although as I understand it, this is part of their business model/appeal. They absolutely could make much better objective performing loudspeaker if they wanted to.

They could make a much better loudspeaker and they decided not to?why?
I'm sure they have done their homework and they are aware of DSP speakers and class D amps and they might even tried some of them with their speakers and decided to stay with class AB because they think they work best with their speakers? who knows..

 

[TimVG]

They could make a much better loudspeaker and they decided not to?why?
I'm sure they have done their homework and they are aware of DSP speakers and class D amps and they might even tried some of them with their speakers and decided to stay with class AB because they think they work best with their speakers? who knows..

Tried some? They've literally been using a miniDSP unit in crossover develepment for a number of years now. It just doesn't appeal to their buyers, that's all. There absolutely -must- be something special about a manufacturer that does everything in-house, right? But the reality is that as far as objective performance goes, they're simply a bit behind.

Just as the worlds finest wood sculptor can't ever make a piece as accurate as can be produced on pratically any CNC mill, in terms of objective performance these older loudspeaker designs cannot match these modern designs where acoustics, DSP and highly efficient amplifiers function in perfect tandem. It says nothing of pride of ownership, service, or even general enjoyment - but don't be fooled into thinking there is magic where there's none.

***

This is not a sneer to ATC - it's simply an objective assesment. I don't need a perfect loudspeaker myself to enjoy music.

 

[Soniclife]

but i'm still choosing my monitors by ear before anything else

This will only be true if you are doing this blind and level matched, are you?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Genelec recommend the larger one (and uber expensive one) 7380. Other people here are using cheaper and better subwoofers. You will loose the convenience of GLM but a miniDSP will fix it. If you have the space go with large subwoofers from Rythmik or similar.

2x7370 will of course already create many issues with your neighborhood but you will max them out relatively easily. One of the think they do well is to sustain high level for hours without over heating.

I wouldn't consider any sub other than the W371 personally.

 

[Mykola]

I wouldn't consider any sub other than the W371 personally.

Well, they triple budget. Probably two 7380 will be not bad alternative .

Genelec recommend the larger one (and uber expensive one) 7380. Other people here are using cheaper and better subwoofers. You will loose the convenience of GLM but a miniDSP will fix it. If you have the space go with large subwoofers from Rythmik or similar.

2x7370 will of course already create many issues with your neighborhood but you will max them out relatively easily. One of the think they do well is to sustain high level for hours without over heating.

Thanks , @pierre . Other key feature for me is inputs auto select on signal . I use digital for stereo music and analog input for less purist marantz/cinema purposes here is my question on community forum . But seems is not too crowded / active nowadays ( Ikka left ? ) https://community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/message/1694274#/

 

[Hephaestus]

Assuming the main interest in this forum is sound, I think I'm in the right place.
I also assume Kii Three is what you consider a "science based" speaker but i'm still choosing my monitors by ear before anything else, and to me they just didn't sound as good / natural, so am I supposed to buy them because they are "based on science"?
Are you basically saying that you can buy your speakers without even hearing them? can you tell how a speaker is going to sound only by looking at their measurements?
If not, than we are back to the basics, you choose your speakers by ear and it's mostly personal taste.
KH 310 is a monitor that got a very good review here on ASR and I just ordered a pair that I should get in a few days, my ATCs are big and heavy and I still need a subwoofer with them so I'm looking for other alternatives, and I really hope they will be better than the ATC's but if not... with all due respect to the science, I will have to send them back.

I had once slightly similar approach as you seem to have. I ended up dissatisfied every time and I was wondering that "what I am missing?"
In my search for the answer I found this forum and FE Toole´s following book and seminar speech:
https://www.routledge.com/Sound-Rep...f-Loudspeakers-and/Toole/p/book/9781138921368

We simply cannot trust our ears when doing sighted listening tests. Read the book and watch the video - for me they were truly eye-opening.

My personal process to purchase well engineered speakers was this:
1. Find speakers with high resolution measurements from third parties, which should correlate with manufacturers measurements (if available)
2. Audition the ones that fit in the budget and have the features, design, warranty etc you like
3. Decide

This is exactly the right forum to be if you are interested in high quality sound reproduction - here science, peer reviewed research and measurements matter the most.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Well, they triple budget. Probably two 7380 will be not bad alternative .

I wouldn't economise on the bass, particularly when the distributed excitation is uniquely capable of evening bass modes, personally.
4 ordinary subs may be a reasonable alternative.

 

[pierre]

Well, they triple budget. Probably two 7380 will be not bad alternative .


Thanks , @pierre . Other key feature for me is inputs auto select on signal . I use digital for stereo music and analog input for less purist marantz/cinema purposes here is my question on community forum . But seems is not too crowded / active nowadays ( Ikka left ? ) https://community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/message/1694274#/

I do not think it is working but I will test. There is ISS which activate/desactivate the speaker when you do not have a signal. I believe the configuration stored in the speaker is for 1 configuration (AES or Analog).

Do you have the same calibration for both? In my living room, I send all to a RME ADI 2 and then AES. I use a universal remote to program the various components.

I wouldn't consider any sub other than the W371 personally.

I kind of agree but they are not subwoofers, if you want a lot of subbass you still need a sub or 2 in a large room.

 

[Chrise36]

I would try the scm50 pslt with a class d beast first without a sub. I would add a servo controlled sub like rythmik gr research or even a used velodyne for more bass and also you can have them driven actively if you think there would be a benefit.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

A dealer in my area will arrange an A/B between Genelec and ATC SCM150ASL. Waiting for him to give me a date.

 

[LTig]

We simply cannot trust our ears when doing sighted listening tests. Read the book and watch the video - for me they were truly eye-opening.

This!

 

[direstraitsfan98]

A dealer in my area will arrange an A/B between Genelec and ATC SCM150ASL. Waiting for him to give me a date.

Genelec with the subs?

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Are you able to soffit mount the monitors? By doing so you would be able to effectively create the same dispersion pattern as the cardioids. In that case it would make sense to go with the Genelecs.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Genelec with the subs?

Yes - with subs. I plan to listen to exactly what I buy, no more no less.

Are you able to soffit mount the monitors? By doing so you would be able to effectively create the same dispersion pattern as the cardioids. In that case it would make sense to go with the Genelecs.

The Genelec monitors would sit on the W371A subs. The ATCs would be on stands.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Yes - with subs.

The Genelec monitors would sit on the W371A subs. The ATCs would be on stands.

I missed that part. If you're going to use the W371A then you're getting the benefits of the cardioid and the coaxial driver. This one seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[FeddyLost]

I kind of agree but they are not subwoofers

If 25hz @ -3db is not a subwoofer, what else is?

If one will compare the ones calibrated with w371 and atc 150, installers must be really motivated to make genelecs sound worse.
DSP 5-way is kind of SOTA now ... but price...