me geithain rl-901k2 vs ATC SCM150ASL vs Genelec 8351b + W371A vs Ultimate Preamp

[Deleted member 4708]

I missed that part. If you're going to use the W371A then you're getting the benefits of the cardioid and the coaxial driver. This one seems like a no-brainer to me.

Genelecs win the popularity contest on this site. Fundamentally the speaker is limited by the drivers and the Genelec drivers don't seem anything special imo. However, being a believer in measurements, I have to say Genelec makes the most of their drivers.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Genelecs win the popularity contest on this site. Fundamentally the speaker is limited by the drivers and the Genelec drivers don't seem anything special imo. However, being a believer in measurements, I have to say Genelec makes the most of their drivers.

Are you talking about the low-end SPL of the Genelecs? Are you referring to measurements by themselves or with thr W371A when you talk about their distortion? If you add the W371A you will be alleviating the woofers in the monitors and lowering the THD in low frequencies.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Are you talking about the low-end SPL of the Genelecs? Are you referring to measurements by themselves or with thr W371A when you talk about their distortion? If you add the W371A you will be alleviating the woofers in the monitors and lowering the THD in low frequencies.

With the W371A the low end will have better THD. However, the mid and tweeter won't be improved. The mid seems fine but the THD in the tweeter is nowhere close to a BE tweeter or a SOTA tweeter. Given the price I'd expect pretty much SOTA. We will see.

 

[Logix]

I had once slightly similar approach as you seem to have. I ended up dissatisfied every time and I was wondering that "what I am missing?"
In my search for the answer I found this forum and FE Toole´s following book and seminar speech:
https://www.routledge.com/Sound-Rep...f-Loudspeakers-and/Toole/p/book/9781138921368

We simply cannot trust our ears when doing sighted listening tests. Read the book and watch the video - for me they were truly eye-opening.

My personal process to purchase well engineered speakers was this:
1. Find speakers with high resolution measurements from third parties, which should correlate with manufacturers measurements (if available)
2. Audition the ones that fit in the budget and have the features, design, warranty etc you like
3. Decide

This is exactly the right forum to be if you are interested in high quality sound reproduction - here science, peer reviewed research and measurements matter the most.

Thanks for the links, I will try to watch the video later today when I have more time, but if you can't trust your ears in a listening test, how can you produce a song, mix or master? this is all done by ear, of course many are using analyzers but I think you will find many mix and mastering engineers can't agree with this statement.

About your other post, yes I match levels with a measurement microphone in the sweet spot and SPL meter from REW but I don't do blind tests.. I'm very neutral in every A/B comparison and I really want to find a more compact setup than ATC+sub so I spent thousands on shipping for demos or restocking fee, but I won't compromise on the sound so i'm keep looking and I really hope I will find something that can replace my ATCs but it just didn't happen yet.

 

[Logix]

A dealer in my area will arrange an A/B between Genelec and ATC SCM150ASL. Waiting for him to give me a date.

I had the Genelecs 8351B (without subwoofer) in my room just 3-4 months ago and they are very nice if we are talking about listening to music but as a work tool I felt their sound is not as natural or real when it comes to reproduction of some source material, they rely on the rear port too much for bass and it makes their bass less clear than it could be, I wouldn't notice it if not in A/B comparison in the same room but I felt everything is clearer with ATC, of course the W371 could change everything so good luck with your test and that was the main point I tried to make, get the speakers you want in the same room and let your ears be the judge.

 

[richard12511]

I wouldn't economise on the bass, particularly when the distributed excitation is uniquely capable of evening bass modes, personally.
4 ordinary subs may be a reasonable alternative.

4 ordinary subs will be quite a bit better in terms of bass below 100Hz or so, as they can be spread even further apart than the woofers of the W371 and thus cancel even more nulls. They'll also be significantly bigger and more powerful, with lower distortion, assuming equal monies. Where ordinary subs fall short, and why I'm still so interested in the W371, is the 100-450Hz region. I'm interested not only in the extra dynamics it adds, but also the lower directivity control.

That said, 4 separate subs also adds a lot of work, whereas the W371 "kinda" does it for you, which is huge for some. Not everyone wants to spend an entire weekend fiddling with that stuff.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

4 ordinary subs will be quite a bit better in terms of bass below 100Hz or so, as they can be spread even further apart than the woofers of the W371 and thus cancel even more nulls. They'll also be significantly bigger and more powerful, with lower distortion, assuming equal monies. Where ordinary subs fall short, and why I'm still so interested in the W371, is the 100-450Hz region. I'm interested not only in the extra dynamics it adds, but also the lower directivity control that it adds.

That said, 4 separate subs also adds a lot of work, whereas the W371 "kinda" does it for you, which is huge for some. Not everyone wants to spend an entire weekend fiddling with that stuff.

4 subs? no way. What makes the Genelec attractive is the fact I can put the monitors on top of the W371A. That way it looks less messy. There is no way my OCD will accept 4 subs around the room; perfect music or not.

 

[richard12511]

I had the Genelecs 8351B (without subwoofer) in my room just 3-4 months ago and they are very nice if we are talking about listening to music but as a work tool I felt their sound is not as natural or real when it comes to reproduction of some source material, they rely on the rear port too much for bass and it makes their bass less clear than it could be, I wouldn't notice it if not in A/B comparison in the same room but I felt everything is clearer with ATC, of course the W371 could change everything so good luck with your test and that was the main point I tried to make, get the speakers you want in the same room and let your ears be the judge.

I always like to point out the science were talking about only tells us what most people will prefer, but not what every individual will prefer. Most people will prefer Genelec/ME/D&D/Kii/Neumann/etc. over similarly priced ATCs, but you very well may not.

But yeah, you really can't trust your ears in sighted tests, unfortunately. Really, it's not your ears that you can't trust, it's your brain. When the KH310s arrive, see if you can get a friend to help you with a level matched blind listening test. Given you've been mixing on the ATCs for so long though, you may still be able to identify them, which defeats the purpose of listening blind. Adding a third speaker to the test(ime) can help with this. That will let you know what your "ears" prefer, rather than what your brain prefers .

 

[Frank Dernie]

I missed that part.

Its in the thread title.

 

[Frank Dernie]

they rely on the rear port too much for bass and it makes their bass less clear than it could be,

What would be the technical logic behind this?
I have seen other people mention position of reflex ports as if it effects bass but given the wavelength I have never seen an explanation for why.
I can understand the benefit of putting the port on the rear to avoid mid frequency noise from the enclosure being projected into the room but see no technical reason why having the port on the rear could effect the bass at typical reflex tuning frequencies, so have been intrigued to hear a plausible explanation for years.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Not everyone wants to spend an entire weekend fiddling with that stuff.

They'll also be significantly bigger and more powerful, with lower distortion, assuming equal monies.

I have a single REL Studio. It is so big and heavy moving it is all but impossible!
Edit: Just checked, 95kg no wonder I have only moved it once in the last 20 years!
I am sure one weekend wouldn't be enough to get their positions near optimum if I had 4 of them even with a team of labourers to help!

 

[Frank Dernie]

4 subs? no way. What makes the Genelec attractive is the fact I can put the monitors on top of the W371A. That way it looks less messy. There is no way my OCD will accept 4 subs around the room; perfect music or not.

That is my opinion too, but I am still hesitant because they look so unbelieveably hideous in plain grey
OTOH it is difficult to imagine that they won't be better SQ.
I am really looking forward to your comments.

 

[Mnyb]

They could make a much better loudspeaker and they decided not to?why?
I'm sure they have done their homework and they are aware of DSP speakers and class D amps and they might even tried some of them with their speakers and decided to stay with class AB because they think they work best with their speakers? who knows..

I don’t think we should get bugged by if it’s class D and or DSP . Neumann actually also do AB amps and analog active xover in thier larger models.
The big differentiator seems to be more modern drivers and modern acoustical properties and voicing in line with more modern research . Wave guides and dispersion properties , like that

I don’t think the pro market always is more rational than the hifi crackpot market ( sadly ) so I would expect anachronistic gear fetishising there too . Albeit high end is even more clueless and even more expensive.

So if one prefers to keep it analog after the DAC one could also consider KH420 or KH310 from Neumann and thier amps is AB to .

 

[Frank Dernie]

I don’t think we should get bugged by if it’s class D and or DSP . Neumann actually also do AB amps and analog active xover in thier larger models.
The big differentiator seems to be more modern drivers and modern acoustical properties and voicing in line with more modern research . Wave guides and dispersion properties , like that

I don’t think the pro market always is more rational than the hifi crackpot market ( sadly ) so I would expect anachronistic gear fetishising there too . Albeit high end is even more clueless and even more expensive.

So if one prefers to keep it analog after the DAC one could also consider KH420 or KH310 from Neumann and thier amps is AB to .

I do think/expect the next updates to both these Neumann models, which are relatively long in production, will be DSP and probably class D too.
I notice the latest ME Geithan monster has adopted much more powerful class D amps than the AB models in the earlier speakers.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Found something very interesting:

Please pay attention towards the end (0:54 in the video): the presenter at some point has in his hands 2 drivers. The mid driver looks very deep - huge! Both drivers seem hefty. I may have underestimated the drivers in the Genelec Ones series.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

While studying the measurements of the 8351B vs 8361A I noticed that the 8351B while having lower SPL has better directivity in the lower end.
I wonder if there is any SPL difference when paired with W371A - otherwise it makes more sense to buy 8351B + W371A. Anyone has any idea if there is still an SPL difference between 8351B vs 8361A when paired with W371A?
I think there should be none. The sub will provide muscle for the lower end and let's say at 200Hz the 3-way takes over. Now, above 200Hz both bass drivers from 8351B and 8361A are competent.

 

[richard12511]

While studying the measurements of the 8351B vs 8361A I noticed that the 8351B while having lower SPL has better directivity in the lower end.
I wonder if there is any SPL difference when paired with W371A - otherwise it makes more sense to buy 8351B + W371A. Anyone has any idea if there is still an SPL difference between 8351B vs 8361A when paired with W371A?
I think there should be none. The sub will provide muscle for the lower end and let's say at 200Hz the 3-way takes over. Now, above 200Hz both bass drives from 8351B and 8361A are competent.

If you're getting the W371, I would get the 8351b for it's superior off axis performance. I honestly doubt there is much output differences if your using the W371 and crossing over at 400Hz. Even if there is, it's highly likely (imo) that you'd realize that difference in use. 8351b + W371a will get rock concert loud. Running the 8351b full range, however, they definitely give up well before I do at 3.5m, and that's where I think the 8361 would be better.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

If you're getting the W371, I would get the 8351b for it's superior off axis performance. I honestly doubt there is much output differences if your using the W371 and crossing over at 400Hz. Even if there is, it's highly likely (imo) that you'd realize that difference in use. 8351b + W371a will get rock concert loud. Running the 8351b full range, however, they definitely give up well before I do at 3.5m, and that's where I think the 8361 would be better.

Thanks for your reply.
1. If I go Genelec, W371A is a given
2. Crossing over at 400 Hz would render the bass driver in the 8351B useless. I think the crossover point of 320 between mid and bass driver in the 8351B is fixed. Is it not?

 

[Frank Dernie]

While studying the measurements of the 8351B vs 8361A I noticed that the 8351B while having lower SPL has better directivity in the lower end.
I wonder if there is any SPL difference when paired with W371A - otherwise it makes more sense to buy 8351B + W371A. Anyone has any idea if there is still an SPL difference between 8351B vs 8361A when paired with W371A?
I think there should be none. The sub will provide muscle for the lower end and let's say at 200Hz the 3-way takes over. Now, above 200Hz both bass drivers from 8351B and 8361A are competent.

When I looked into it I decided on the 8351B. Its height is about the same as the W371 width so it looks OK on its side on top of the W371 (like the 2L recording guy uses them).
I haven't auditioned them yet or had a hands on try of GLM and how to connect them to my HiFi so they would work properly if I am not using a computer.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Both drivers seem hefty. I may have underestimated the drivers in the Genelec Ones series.

IMO it is not possible to judge a drive unit by looking at it, tempting though it may be.
This is one of the reasons why sighted listening comparisons are so susceptible to bias.
Correct me if I am wrong anybody but I seem to remember in a loudspeaker listening comparison at JBL(?) one of the speakers auditioned was the sound stick 2.1 system.

In the blind test it got a much higher mark than the sighted test. The order of preference was not altered but the difference in sound reported by the listeners was much bigger when they could see what they were listening to - and this was obviously a bias that was deceiving them.