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Massdrop Airist R2R DAC Review

FireLion

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They should have had the sdac balanced in this chassis and added some ports.
 

FireLion

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Thank your for your detailed review. They stole my production R2R module and didn't make good use of the module:facepalm: because they didn't know the details of the development and probably changed the configuration of the circuit.
I have newly developed new module using delta-sigma modulation that allow any pcm/dsd upsample to DSD1024. After our new model is released, I will send one to you for another testing. Many thanks.

If you made it balanced and put in same size chassis as the airist you would sell a lot or you could make it to match the 887 thx amp (maybe develop with monoprice?).

Either way you would sell many if price was good.
 
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But really, an engineer should know better. They should know that distorting the input signal is not what the artist and talent intend when they distributed their music. There is no alternative universe here were bad things are good. You don't eat out of dirty dishes thinking it adds flavor to your feed. Why do that in the case of DAC?

Needless to say, the Airist R2R DAC should be in a category of audio DACs that are avoided. As such, I can't recommend it.
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As always, questions, comments, corrections, etc. are welcome.

I'll bet this Dac sounds just as it's intended to sound.
I disagree with your dirty dishes analogy . The small amounts of distortion added may actually make the music sound better for some people on some systems. Did you actually listen to any music on it ? Get your feet tapping ?

I think any Artist wants their music listened too. regardless even if its in a lousy car stereo. As long as its being played sufficiently loud and moves you that's the point really.
If someone has a hifi that sounds a bit lush or warm and that helps them to enjoy the music there's no problem. No musical notes will be harmed.

Hearing Chuck Berry singles in a vintage tube jukebox was heavenly. Chuck would have been proud.

Fair enough if you will avoid this Dac but others may love it and its really unfair to say it should be avoided.
 
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raif71

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I'll bet this Dac sounds just as it's intended to sound.
I disagree with your dirty dishes analogy . The small amounts of distortion added may actually make the music sound better for some people on some systems. Did you actually listen to any music on it ? Get your feet tapping ?

I think any Artist wants their music listened too. regardless even if its in a lousy car stereo. As long as its being played sufficiently loud and moves you that's the point really.
If someone has a hifi that sounds a bit lush or warm and that helps them to enjoy the music there's no problem. No musical notes will be harmed.

Hearing Chuck Berry singles in a vintage tube jukebox was heavenly. Chuck would have been proud.

Fair enough if you will avoid this Dac but others may love it.
For me, I wouldn't say that anybody would "intentionally" add distortion (as some stated it). The designer may simply tuned the dac during the designing process to suit his/her preference of what sound/music should be like. Whether that resulted in unfavorable measurement, as long as the designer or some segment of the audiophiles like it, shouldn't really matter, right ?
 
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For me, I wouldn't say that anybody would "intentionally" add distortion (as some stated it). The designer may simply tuned the dac during the designing process to suit his/her preference of what sound/music should be like. Whether that resulted in unfavorable measurement, as long as the designer or some segment of the audiophiles like it, shouldn't really matter, right ?

Yes.
Very well said.
Its unfair to say this Dac should be avoided . I'd love to hear it over all the rest that sound the same.

Did the OP actually listen to any music on it ?
 

SIY

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Entirely possible that it sounds the same as a well-designed DAC. It doesn't look like any of its proponents bothered to do an actual listening test to see if it sounded any different (much less better) than a good DAC.
 

beefkabob

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I'll bet this Dac sounds just as it's intended to sound.
I disagree with your dirty dishes analogy . The small amounts of distortion added may actually make the music sound better for some people on some systems. Did you actually listen to any music on it ? Get your feet tapping ?

I think any Artist wants their music listened too. regardless even if its in a lousy car stereo. As long as its being played sufficiently loud and moves you that's the point really.
If someone has a hifi that sounds a bit lush or warm and that helps them to enjoy the music there's no problem. No musical notes will be harmed.

Hearing Chuck Berry singles in a vintage tube jukebox was heavenly. Chuck would have been proud.

Fair enough if you will avoid this Dac but others may love it and its really unfair to say it should be avoided.

I go to concerts and cover my ears with my hands. My hands muffle the sound pleasantly I go to art museums and put vaseline on my lenses before looking at the art. The blurriness gives the paintings warm, impressionistic, fuzzy feeling.

The issues with this DAC are clearly audible. Why anybody would call distortion "warm" or pleasing I do not know. Distorted is a better term. Certainly tubes make a distorted guitar even more distorted, but I figure the Beatles knew how much distortion they wanted when they played the songs. Adding distortion on purpose is just silly, and paying a lot for the pleasure is even sillier.
 

ousi

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Well, I had this DAC when it was launched from one of the first batches. I found this DAC unlistenable when playing certain types of music with a lot of high frequency content, and buried some details that I know it's there (e.g. a metronome in a Japanese song). Sold it within a week taking a 15% loss (since Massdrop/Drop doesn't like returns). As I have said before, the source has to be accurate and free of noise, so that I can "tune" it to my liking by downstream components (pre-amp, power amp, speakers, etc; And I do connect a pretty accurate DAC to a tube integrated to some old-school Spendor bookshelf speakers to tune the presentation). If the original signal is distorted/buried deep into the noise floor, it's gone.
 

Jimster480

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I'll bet this Dac sounds just as it's intended to sound.
I disagree with your dirty dishes analogy . The small amounts of distortion added may actually make the music sound better for some people on some systems. Did you actually listen to any music on it ? Get your feet tapping ?

I think any Artist wants their music listened too. regardless even if its in a lousy car stereo. As long as its being played sufficiently loud and moves you that's the point really.
If someone has a hifi that sounds a bit lush or warm and that helps them to enjoy the music there's no problem. No musical notes will be harmed.

Hearing Chuck Berry singles in a vintage tube jukebox was heavenly. Chuck would have been proud.

Fair enough if you will avoid this Dac but others may love it and its really unfair to say it should be avoided.

Actually it should be avoided.
 

Killingbeans

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The small amounts of distortion added may actually make the music sound better for some people on some systems.

If that's what rocks your boat, fine. It just seems like an extremely cumbersome and expensive way of adding distortion to a signal chain. It can probably be done in software for free. Or, if tweaking/tinkering is important to you, any cheap DAC and some targeted malicious soldering skills would likely yield similar results.

If you want to build a DAC, then build a DAC. If you want to build a box that adds distortion, then build box that adds distortion. But don't combine the two and sell it as a DAC.
 

digicidal

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Hmm , why is the assumption always that the added distorsion "sounds good"
Because that's much easier than admitting to yourself (or others) that you based your purchase on esoteric qualities and/or subjective opinions of 3rd party reviews.

In this case we're definitely well into audible levels, but with most "audiophile approved" gear the variance is nominal. It's much easier to dispute nuances that are inaudible to most (if not all) consumers. The part I find most laughable is that the same people who staunchly defend this type of device, are often the most vocal in their condemnation of DSP and even tone controls... because they "destroy the purity of the signal". :facepalm:
 

Killingbeans

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The part I find most laughable is that the same people who staunchly defend this type of device, are often the most vocal in their condemnation of DSP and even tone controls... because they "destroy the purity of the signal". :facepalm:

In Denmark we have an ironic saying that loosely translates to: "Having standards is nice. Having double standards is twice as nice." :D
 

Jimbob54

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If that's what rocks your boat, fine. It just seems like an extremely cumbersome and expensive way of adding distortion to a signal chain. It can probably be done in software for free. Or, if tweaking/tinkering is important to you, any cheap DAC and some targeted malicious soldering skills would likely yield similar results.

If you want to build a DAC, then build a DAC. If you want to build a box that adds distortion, then build box that adds distortion. But don't combine the two and sell it as a DAC.

Per the Drop site for this:

"Our goal was to make a DAC that does everything an audiophile would want a DAC to do: deliver accurate reproduction with resolution, attack and decay that sounds realistic, enough information to get a sense of space and instrumentation, and voicing that adds to the perception of true performance and enjoyment. We aimed to solve many of the common issues that can occur in DACs—namely, congestion, graininess, and the disjoined presentation of vocals to overall soundstage. Because digital storage and conversion are, at their core, math, errors or approaches can result in these unpleasant analog signal characteristics. For example, if unnaturally fast, sharp rise times are amplified from mathematical conversions, they can sound harsh or unnatural in your headphones or speakers. In contrast, this DAC maintains a consistent and natural soundstage, complex harmonics, clarity during busy passages, and an overall musical and resolving sound."

Which I think is the type of copy we all loathe in product blurb. Im betting dimes on the dollar if I walked into a room with this plugged in and playing, I suspect I wouldnt notice the crap its pumping out . Would I "prefer" it in proper tests or spot its nature over a well measuring DS DAC? No idea. Having seen the tests, would I buy it ? god no! Why would you? But I really would like to do some A/B testing against anything I currently own- just to once and for all say if I could or could not tell the difference between a "good" (lets say top quartile on ASR charts ) and "bad" (lowest of the low on ASR charts)
 

Killingbeans

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Im betting dimes on the dollar if I walked into a room with this plugged in and playing, I suspect I wouldnt notice the crap its pumping out .

Me neither. The thing is that the audible thresholds often referenced here on ASR assume near-ideal listening conditions and a minimum of cognitive bias. In normal casual conditions ("highly resolving systems" and "golden ears" doesn't count as exceptions) the Airist probably sounds just like any other DAC. I would love to be proven wrong though.
 

Jimbob54

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I'll bet this Dac sounds just as it's intended to sound.
I disagree with your dirty dishes analogy . The small amounts of distortion added may actually make the music sound better for some people on some systems. Did you actually listen to any music on it ? Get your feet tapping ?

I think any Artist wants their music listened too. regardless even if its in a lousy car stereo. As long as its being played sufficiently loud and moves you that's the point really.
If someone has a hifi that sounds a bit lush or warm and that helps them to enjoy the music there's no problem. No musical notes will be harmed.

Hearing Chuck Berry singles in a vintage tube jukebox was heavenly. Chuck would have been proud.

Fair enough if you will avoid this Dac but others may love it and its really unfair to say it should be avoided.

Then you haven't understood the premise of Amir's reviews. Or ASR generally. This device does not accurately convert digital signals to analog. It fails in what Amir believes the main job of a DAC to be. (EDIT- and a whole lot of other members here)

His subjective /listening comments are almost an adjunct to the measurements. He cannot recommend a dac that performs so terribly. He removes subjective preference wherever possible. It's the whole point.
 
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