Massdrop Airist R2R DAC Review

[beefkabob]

Some people like driving trucks. Sure they tend to ride, steer, accelerate, and brake poorly while getting terrible mileage, but they have often comfy interiors, lots of space, and most importantly a certain image. I got tremendous respect from adult white men when I drove my truck.

So you buy a crappy DAC that performs poorly in every, but the case looks nice your audiophool friends drool when you say how esoteric the sound reproduction method is.

I'm moving furniture. With my Subaru Forester and a trailer. Easier to load than a truck too.

 

[pglee]

I've done several home recordings and studio recordings and I think people seem to forget that there is no such thing as a pure recording. Keep in mind most people mastering and mixing are not listening to purely distortionless playback devices, especially the studio monitors used and the rooms they are listening in. The purely flat playback is not what the artist was actually listening to. Furthermore, we are often adding effects and tools to make the music sound better. We're not aiming for purity. When people have their recordings mastered, the mastering engineer is putting it through all sorts of distortion tools to make the music sound more alive or to mask some harshness. Perhaps some distorted equipment has that same effect, like this DAC. In that sense, there is an almost art to developing gear. The more straight forward approach is of course to make these playback devices with absolute zero distortion. Take this variable out of the equation as much as possible. But, what if that variable adds a little bit extra or takes away a bit of something to every recording that you personally prefer. What if you prefer all your dishes to a have a bit of salt or hot sauce? What if you always prefer to have a bit of cream in your coffee?

 

[Veri]

The more straight forward approach is of course to make these playback devices with absolute zero distortion. Take this variable out of the equation as much as possible. But, what if that variable adds a little bit extra or takes away a bit of something to every recording that you personally prefer. What if you prefer all your dishes to a have a bit of salt or hot sauce? What if you always prefer to have a bit of cream in your coffee?

The problem with this is that flawed products can thus be explained by manufacturers that it was "intended", that shortcomings or engineering failures were intentional, that the sound will be more "analogue" or whatever. As you allow these defects ("flavour" if you will), manufacturer will always have an excuse ready, you can no longer objectively compare since they'll say it simply sounds better. No, I don't think this is really the way to go. Looking at this Airist, they are no longer being made. It wasn't a success, and reading drop reviews a large percentage of units had problems with noise/static.

 

[amirm]

What if you prefer all your dishes to a have a bit of salt or hot sauce?

Well, a better analogy is if you want your dishes a bit dirty. Most likely it won't change the food but personally, I want them clean.

The level of distortion I measure in most audiophile products is way too low to be detectable anyway let alone be an effect box.

 

[solderdude]

I've done several home recordings and studio recordings and I think people seem to forget that there is no such thing as a pure recording. Keep in mind most people mastering and mixing are not listening to purely distortionless playback devices, especially the studio monitors used and the rooms they are listening in. The purely flat playback is not what the artist was actually listening to. Furthermore, we are often adding effects and tools to make the music sound better. We're not aiming for purity. When people have their recordings mastered, the mastering engineer is putting it through all sorts of distortion tools to make the music sound more alive or to mask some harshness. Perhaps some distorted equipment has that same effect, like this DAC. In that sense, there is an almost art to developing gear. The more straight forward approach is of course to make these playback devices with absolute zero distortion. Take this variable out of the equation as much as possible. But, what if that variable adds a little bit extra or takes away a bit of something to every recording that you personally prefer. What if you prefer all your dishes to a have a bit of salt or hot sauce? What if you always prefer to have a bit of cream in your coffee?

Personal seasoning of sound is fine, I am all for it .. but why use a DAC for this when it only knows one type of seasoning and cannot un-season.
For seasoning you either use tone controls/EQ/DSP or (flawed) filter settings or buy headphones/speakers with your flavor instead.
A DAC can either put out a (very close to) correct signal or an incorrect signal. The fact that some people prefer incorrect, most likely to 'compensate' for incorrectness further down the chain, is no excuse for using a 'seasoned only' DAC.

Totally agreed on the recording side when it comes to the vast majority of popular recordings.

 

[pglee]

The problem with this is that flawed products can thus be explained by manufacturers that it was "intended", that shortcomings or engineering failures were intentional, that the sound will be more "analogue" or whatever. As you allow these defects ("flavour" if you will), manufacturer will always have an excuse ready, you can no longer objectively compare since they'll say it simply sounds better. No, I don't think this is really the way to go. Looking at this Airist, they are no longer being made. It wasn't a success, and reading drop reviews a large percentage of units had problems with noise/static.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. You can't objectively compare subjective impressions, by definition. However, can you still dismiss someone's subjective impressions as a mere psychological trick? Reaction formation? Rationalization? If you do ABC double blind comparison's, then yes. I've done a blind comparison with cables and convinced myself, I don't hear any difference. But, the measurements on this gear are so far from undistorted that I think there is a sound being introduced that is audible. I think what many people are arguing is that it's not an unpleasant sound. Maybe you'll like it. Give it a try. It's not pure. It's adding or taking away something, but overall it makes recorded music more involving. It's probably why I still enjoy listening to my vinyl records. (for some analogue recordings, the sound is pure junk all over the place but for whatever reason those vocals can sound so real and clear compared to the digital recording.)

Also, I'm not so sure this was a failure. It sold nearly 1000 units, compared to Airist's amplifier which only sold about 64 units.

 

[pglee]

Personal seasoning of sound is fine, I am all for it .. but why use a DAC for this when it only knows one type of seasoning and cannot un-season.
For seasoning you either use tone controls/EQ/DSP or (flawed) filter settings or buy headphones/speakers with your flavor instead.
A DAC can either put out a (very close to) correct signal or an incorrect signal. The fact that some people prefer incorrect, most likely to 'compensate' for incorrectness further down the chain, is no excuse for using a 'seasoned only' DAC.

Totally agreed on the recording side when it comes to the vast majority of popular recordings.

Yeah, I agree. I just happened to buy it since I'm stuck in consumerism land. I'm just learning not to dismiss poorly measured gear outright.

 

[pglee]

Well, a better analogy is if you want your dishes a bit dirty. Most likely it won't change the food but personally, I want them clean.

The level of distortion I measure in most audiophile products is way too low to be detectable anyway let alone be an effect box.

I think that's the danger of some of these measurements. You can become a germophobe when your S/N isn't above 100db (guilty) when in actuality most people won't notice it. I mean I guess that's why this is a hobby for perfectionists and nerds.

 

[Mnyb]

My pow , distorsion added by equipment is random towards the program material and is not something the producer or artist decided on .

Further as everything adds distorsion and noise somewhere there gona be the straw that breaks the camels back , so why not have the parts perform way beyound human hearing .

But thats not really the question regarding these kinds of products

The people who promotes them really thinks there is a magical unmeasurable quality lost in for example traditional DS DAC's global feedback transistors (insert any belief) .
There is no spoon( to quote the Matrix) .
Small signal electronics is really fully quantifiable by measurments and performs acordingly , there can be gremlins in gain structure and matching if your unlucky.

Funny enough expensive audiophile brands can be some kinds of self serving profecies and exhibbit problems most sane engineers thougth was gone in the 70's as great sensitivity to power supplies problems driving stuff etc ..

 

[whazzup]

I think that's the danger of some of these measurements. You can become a germophobe when your S/N isn't above 100db (guilty) when in actuality most people won't notice it. I mean I guess that's why this is a hobby for perfectionists and nerds.

Wooh....analogy overload! It depends on how much you're paying to the restaurants (manufacturers) and your expectations for the cleaniness of the plate the dish is on. The plate may be dirtier, but maybe the waiter / waitress serving it was very hot, so that's fine. Yup I can understand that.

 

[Veri]

I think that's the danger of some of these measurements. You can become a germophobe when your S/N isn't above 100db (guilty) when in actuality most people won't notice it. I mean I guess that's why this is a hobby for perfectionists and nerds.

If you look at multitone it's less than 16-bits linear, so less than 96dB theoretical resolution. That's literally just smearing some of the details away... I can't see why one would purposefully buy something so badly performing but I suppose that's up to the consumer. I can get when you say one can't hear 24-bit/120dB resolution, that is overkill, but not even clearing 16-bit audio is pretty bad by all standards.

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes, you are absolutely correct. You can't objectively compare subjective impressions, by definition. However, can you still dismiss someone's subjective impressions as a mere psychological trick? Reaction formation? Rationalization? If you do ABC double blind comparison's, then yes. I've done a blind comparison with cables and convinced myself, I don't hear any difference. But, the measurements on this gear are so far from undistorted that I think there is a sound being introduced that is audible. I think what many people are arguing is that it's not an unpleasant sound. Maybe you'll like it. Give it a try. It's not pure. It's adding or taking away something, but overall it makes recorded music more involving. It's probably why I still enjoy listening to my vinyl records. (for some analogue recordings, the sound is pure junk all over the place but for whatever reason those vocals can sound so real and clear compared to the digital recording.)

Also, I'm not so sure this was a failure. It sold nearly 1000 units, compared to Airist's amplifier which only sold about 64 units.

Forgive me if I missed the post, I understand you own this? Fair enough, buy and enjoy whatever.

Question for me is, did you know how it measured before buying? If you didnt, would you have bought knowing the measurements? If you did know, why choose this poorly performing DAC over any other poorly performing DAC? (A schiit multibit, for example- that have way more positive reviews across the interweb).

I only ask because I'm intrigued. Now I have found ASR, should I need a new DAC, I would be looking for the best measuring DAC that had all the functions and features I needed within my budget. I am no longer solely at the mercy of whichever subjective reviews I find.

 

[solderdude]

If you look at multitone it's less than 16-bits linear, so less than 96dB theoretical resolution. That's literally just smearing some of the details away... I can't see why one would purposefully buy something so badly performing but I suppose that's up to the consumer. I can get when you say one can't hear 24-bit/120dB resolution, that is overkill, but not even clearing 16-bit audio is pretty bad by all standards.

What would be really interesting is to record the output and null that. Then listen to the null to hear what the differences sound like.
This could give an idea of the changes and whether or not they are 'pleasant' or some kind of weird modulated noise.

Perhaps the owner can record a CD quality file with 24/96 (or 192) and upload that including the original song.
That's the only way we (the not owners) can evaluate the actual sound.
Assuming the ADC does not remove 'magic'

 

[Killingbeans]

I've done several home recordings and studio recordings and I think people seem to forget that there is no such thing as a pure recording. Keep in mind most people mastering and mixing are not listening to purely distortionless playback devices, especially the studio monitors used and the rooms they are listening in. The purely flat playback is not what the artist was actually listening to.

Extremely good point. I think we can quickly agree that trying to recreate the experience that was approved in the studio is completely impossible.

A home setup sets a baseline. You can choose to aim for transparency. Be faithfull to the recording itself in stead of the perceptions that led to its creation. Or you can set a baseline with a flavour of your liking.

I have no problem with the latter, as long as people are being honest about it, but I do find most of the hoops and loops, that they jump through in order to add more or less imaginary flavour, to be silly.

Furthermore, we are often adding effects and tools to make the music sound better. We're not aiming for purity. When people have their recordings mastered, the mastering engineer is putting it through all sorts of distortion tools to make the music sound more alive or to mask some harshness. Perhaps some distorted equipment has that same effect, like this DAC. In that sense, there is an almost art to developing gear. The more straight forward approach is of course to make these playback devices with absolute zero distortion. Take this variable out of the equation as much as possible. But, what if that variable adds a little bit extra or takes away a bit of something to every recording that you personally prefer. What if you prefer all your dishes to a have a bit of salt or hot sauce? What if you always prefer to have a bit of cream in your coffee?

If the Airist adds something audible to the playback (like Amir points out, it's a really big 'if'), then why is it a good way to get that effect?

In the studio you simply turn a knob or push a button. There's no need to pull PCBs out of the mixing console and replace them with exotic new ones that can be auditioned until you find the effect you were looking for. I don't see why home audio should be any different.

I do recognize that this massively ineffective chase for a sound signature is what makes 90% of the fun for a lot of people in the hobby, but to me it's just a huge waste of time and effort.

 

[pglee]

Forgive me if I missed the post, I understand you own this? Fair enough, buy and enjoy whatever.

Question for me is, did you know how it measured before buying? If you didnt, would you have bought knowing the measurements? If you did know, why choose this poorly performing DAC over any other poorly performing DAC? (A schiit multibit, for example- that have way more positive reviews across the interweb).

I only ask because I'm intrigued. Now I have found ASR, should I need a new DAC, I would be looking for the best measuring DAC that had all the functions and features I needed within my budget. I am no longer solely at the mercy of whichever subjective reviews I find.

I bought this because I was intrigued by the ladder dac architecture because I remember auditioning an MSB Platinum DAC which uses a similar architecture several years ago (their gear is obscenely expensive nowadays) and was very impressed with what I heard. When this inexpensive DAC was announced, I put my pre-ordered in because this was so much cheaper than anything MSB offers and Drop had a good reputation for offering great value gear. Perhaps with technology and a little chutzpah they managed to offer what MSB had, for a fraction of the cost. It was worth a try I figured. Plus, consumerism.

Now here's the part where my brain got flipped. I listened to it and immediately noticed a difference. It sounded great. I was hearing details and nuances I wasn't hearing before. I was really looking forward to Amir's review. It's a great feeling when machines validate you. When it was revealed that this was so poorly measured, I kinda chuckled to myself. I was duped. I'm a sucker. Oh well. It wasn't that expensive. (in audiophile terms) I had the Topping D50 handy and I wanted to do a quick comparison, and yep, that Airist DAC sure was colored. But, here's the weird part. I was underwhelmed by the Topping, and I really wanted to listen to the Airist. I kept switching back and forth to convince myself that I was just kidding myself. Eventually, I just conceded. I just really prefer the Airist. I want to listen to it more. It brings out details and an intimacy that I wasn't getting with the D50. I've tried this with several headphones (Sennheiser HD650, Beyerdynamic DT990, Mr Speakers Ether Cx), and the result was the same.

Now, I'm by no means a golden ear audiophile. I understand that I can be easily influenced by placebo or other variables, but the thing is, I really did not want to like this DAC. I don't want to be an audiophile who has bad hearing. I don't want to be a fool who succumbs to good marketing copy. (I had my hearing tested even - it was excellent BTW) I love highly resolving gear and a bargain as much as the next guy. I want to prefer the Topping. Despite, all these inclinations, I still prefer the Airist. It is what it is. This DAC has me re-thinking some of my previous preconceptions. It's kinda refreshing in a way.

 

[Jimbob54]

I bought this because I was intrigued by the ladder dac architecture because I remember auditioning an MSB Platinum DAC which uses a similar architecture several years ago (their gear is obscenely expensive nowadays) and was very impressed with what I heard. When this inexpensive DAC was announced, I put my pre-ordered in because this was so much cheaper than anything MSB offers and Drop had a good reputation for offering great value gear. Perhaps with technology and a little chutzpah they managed to offer what MSB had, for a fraction of the cost. It was worth a try I figured. Plus, consumerism.

Now here's the part where my brain got flipped. I listened to it and immediately noticed a difference. It sounded great. I was hearing details and nuances I wasn't hearing before. I was really looking forward to Amir's review. It's a great feeling when machines validate you. When it was revealed that this was so poorly measured, I kinda chuckled to myself. I was duped. I'm a sucker. Oh well. It wasn't that expensive. (in audiophile terms) I had the Topping D50 handy and I wanted to do a quick comparison, and yep, that Airist DAC sure was colored. But, here's the weird part. I was underwhelmed by the Topping, and I really wanted to listen to the Airist. I kept switching back and forth to convince myself that I was just kidding myself. Eventually, I just conceded. I just really prefer the Airist. I want to listen to it more. It brings out details and an intimacy that I wasn't getting with the D50. I've tried this with several headphones (Sennheiser HD650, Beyerdynamic DT990, Mr Speakers Ether Cx), and the result was the same.

Now, I'm by no means a golden ear audiophile. I understand that I can be easily influenced by placebo or other variables, but the thing is, I really did not want to like this DAC. I don't want to be an audiophile who has bad hearing. I don't want to be a fool who succumbs to good marketing copy. (I had my hearing tested even - it was excellent BTW) I love highly resolving gear and a bargain as much as the next guy. I want to prefer the Topping. Despite, all these inclinations, I still prefer the Airist. It is what it is. This DAC has me re-thinking some of my previous preconceptions. It's kinda refreshing in a way.

I do want to try it, but not buy it. And I'd love to blind test it. If this isnt audibly distinguishable, then nothing is.

Then there would be the issue of preference, which would be another story entirely..

 

[pglee]

Extremely good point. I think we can quickly agree that trying to recreate the experience that was approved in the studio is completely impossible.

A home setup sets a baseline. You can choose to aim for transparency. Be faithfull to the recording itself in stead of the perceptions that led to its creation. Or you can set a baseline with a flavour of your liking.

I have no problem with the latter, as long as people are being honest about it, but I do find most of the hoops and loops, that they jump through in order to add more or less imaginary flavour, to be silly.



If the Airist adds something audible to the playback (like Amir points out, it's a really big 'if'), then why is it a good way to get that effect?

In the studio you simply turn a knob or push a button. There's no need to pull PCBs out of the mixing console and replace them with exotic new ones that can be auditioned until you find the effect you were looking for. I don't see why home audio should be any different.

I do recognize that this massively ineffective chase for a sound signature is what makes 90% of the fun for a lot of people in the hobby, but to me it's just a huge waste of time and effort.

I honestly don't know. I think the results from going through electronics creates a complex level of distortion that is difficult to reproduce digitally or from simple tone controls. For instance, a lot of us here are musicians, and many of us may recall the early emulation days where digital effects were used to emulate solid state effects or model expensive tube amps, they just sounded horrible. Cheap emulators just don't sound right. There's even a whole documentary (Sound City) extolling the greatness of a Neve mixing board. Some of the older people here may remember Bob Carver's attempt to reproduce some of this magic with his solid state amps based off a mega expensive custom tube amp. (I think in the late 80's)

 

[whazzup]

I bought this because I was intrigued by the ladder dac architecture because I remember auditioning an MSB Platinum DAC which uses a similar architecture several years ago (their gear is obscenely expensive nowadays) and was very impressed with what I heard. When this inexpensive DAC was announced, I put my pre-ordered in because this was so much cheaper than anything MSB offers and Drop had a good reputation for offering great value gear. Perhaps with technology and a little chutzpah they managed to offer what MSB had, for a fraction of the cost. It was worth a try I figured. Plus, consumerism.

Now here's the part where my brain got flipped. I listened to it and immediately noticed a difference. It sounded great. I was hearing details and nuances I wasn't hearing before. I was really looking forward to Amir's review. It's a great feeling when machines validate you. When it was revealed that this was so poorly measured, I kinda chuckled to myself. I was duped. I'm a sucker. Oh well. It wasn't that expensive. (in audiophile terms) I had the Topping D50 handy and I wanted to do a quick comparison, and yep, that Airist DAC sure was colored. But, here's the weird part. I was underwhelmed by the Topping, and I really wanted to listen to the Airist. I kept switching back and forth to convince myself that I was just kidding myself. Eventually, I just conceded. I just really prefer the Airist. I want to listen to it more. It brings out details and an intimacy that I wasn't getting with the D50. I've tried this with several headphones (Sennheiser HD650, Beyerdynamic DT990, Mr Speakers Ether Cx), and the result was the same.

Now, I'm by no means a golden ear audiophile. I understand that I can be easily influenced by placebo or other variables, but the thing is, I really did not want to like this DAC. I don't want to be an audiophile who has bad hearing. I don't want to be a fool who succumbs to good marketing copy. (I had my hearing tested even - it was excellent BTW) I love highly resolving gear and a bargain as much as the next guy. I want to prefer the Topping. Despite, all these inclinations, I still prefer the Airist. It is what it is. This DAC has me re-thinking some of my previous preconceptions. It's kinda refreshing in a way.

You wouldn't happen to have a mic handy do you? Curious to see what kind of colorations it has compared to the topping

 

[pglee]

What would be really interesting is to record the output and null that. Then listen to the null to hear what the differences sound like.
This could give an idea of the changes and whether or not they are 'pleasant' or some kind of weird modulated noise.

Perhaps the owner can record a CD quality file with 24/96 (or 192) and upload that including the original song.
That's the only way we (the not owners) can evaluate the actual sound.
Assuming the ADC does not remove 'magic'

That's a good idea. Unfortunately, I left the DAC in my office that I'm quarantined from. Plus, that sounds like a lot of work. Hat's off to Amir for all the work he does. I guess, it's about time I add to the tip jar.

 

[pglee]

You wouldn't happen to have a mic handy do you? Curious to see what kind of colorations it has compared to the topping

Well, I have a nice condenser mic, but ironically it's nice because it adds it's own coloration. Doing the null test would be a good idea, but it hardly will tell you how the gear sounds. Plus, I left the DAC in my office, which I can't get to anymore.