Loudspeaker cable test

[uwotm8]

Actually THIS is what I expect to see as a proper cable test and its result. Unfortunately distortion graphs were not shown.
Despite all ignorant "it can't affect sound because it can't" damn cable somehow does it.
Maybe because of non-dummy load?

If it matters or not is another question BUT today -100 dB SINAD DAC is considered as garbage while "Harman certified Trained Listener (tm)" ability to hear distortion is limited to -40 dB. I agree that 0.2-0.3 dB in treble is almost nothing, I'm starting to notice smallest changes at 0.5 (everyone can try by himself using EQ), so I'd say 0.5 a very fine tuning value. 1 dB already does matter for sure, it's definitely a balance change. But what that guy in video tested is just one speaker, one amp and a few not-that-different cables. Would be nice to see some phat snakes (the fatter the snake the more snake oil!) with few speakers and amps etc etc - like in a Mythbusters, trying to find a ridicilously rare combo when it works. That's the science I'd appreciate

P.S. Not surprised seeing cheapest AQ besting all other cables lol

 

[SIY]

Despite all ignorant "it can't affect sound because it cant" damn cable somehow does it.

Maybe. Impossible to tell without any test setup being described.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Cables have measurable effects. Fred E. Davis published a great paper in 1991.He builds a rich model of cable, amplifier and complex speaker load and then compares it with measurements of a range of diverse cables, complex loads and different amplifiers. Based on his model and his measurements, high frequency impacts come more from cable inductance than the skin effect and his conclusions seem to favour lower inductance + higher capacitance cables (which is one of the few models I've seen which captures this).

His first conclusion is that :

"These tests have shown that the best way to achieve adequately low resistance and inductance in a cable is by using many independently insulated wires per conductor rather than one large wire." Fred E. Davis 1991

He also notes: that bigger gauge cables are not necessarily better and may be worse for normal "zip wire" structures, due to bigger cables having more inductance! :

"Of the two-wire cables, 12 AWG provided the best performance with reactive loads, while both smaller and larger gauges (3-7 AWG and 18 AWG) showed greater high-frequency drop and interaction with capacitive reactance in a load. 12 AWG seems more than adequate, even for demanding systems, high power levels, and reasonable lengths." Fred E. Davis 1991

His final conclusion is:

"Low-inductance cables will provide the best performance when driving reactive loads, especially with amplifiers having low damping factor, and when flat response is critical, when long cable lengths are required, or when perfection is sought. Though not as linear as flat cables, 12 AWG wire works well and exceeds the high-frequency performance of other two-conductor cables tested." Fred E. Davis 1991

 

[Salt]

Best speaker cable is no speaker cable: go ahead to active speakers, connected digitally or, at least, analogue balanced.
Not?

 

[egellings]

Best speaker cable is no speaker cable: go ahead to active speakers, connected digitally or, at least, analogue balanced.
Not?

That, or else just go for mono block amps sited next to their speakers and use wires short enough to not have much of an effect at all.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Cables have measurable effects. Fred E. Davis published a great paper in 1991.He builds a rich model of cable, amplifier and complex speaker load and then compares it with measurements of a range of diverse cables, complex loads and different amplifiers. Based on his model and his measurements, high frequency impacts come more from cable inductance than the skin effect and his conclusions seem to favour lower inductance + higher capacitance cables (which is one of the few models I've seen which captures this).

His first conclusion is that :


He also notes: that bigger gauge cables are not necessarily better and may be worse for normal "zip wire" structures, due to bigger cables having more inductance! :


His final conclusion is:

For that reason the cheaper AQ or others that offered Litz construction weren't completely useless.

 

[antcollinet]

That, or else just go for mono block amps sited next to their speakers and use wires short enough to not have much of an effect at all.

I'd rather have long speaker cables than long interconnect. At least if the interconnect is unbalanced.

 

[egellings]

I'd rather have long speaker cables than long interconnect. At least if the interconnect is unbalanced.

I use a long interconnect with a driven guard.

 

[Speedskater]

Look at it this way:
When loudspeaker designers voice loudspeakers, they connect to the loudspeakers thru speaker cables.
If you connect to those speakers with cables that have a significant difference in total end-to-end resistance, you may change the voicing of the speakers.

 

[MarkS]

View attachment 350643
Actually THIS is what I expect to see as a proper cable test and its result.

Note the vertical scale: 0.1dB per division.

If it matters or not is another question

Indeed.

BUT today -100 dB SINAD DAC is considered as garbage

An absurd point of view, which I agree is all too prevalent here at ASR.

 

[antcollinet]

Look at it this way:
When loudspeaker designers voice loudspeakers, they connect to the loudspeakers thru speaker cables.
If you connect to those speakers with cables that have a significant difference in total end-to-end resistance, you may change the voicing of the speakers.

I doubt very much they use speaker cables with resistance high enough to influence the voicing - because that would be really stupid. So all we need to do is use speaker cables with similarly low resistance.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I doubt very much they use speaker cables with resistance high enough to influence the voicing - because that would be really stupid. So all we need to do is use speaker cables with similarly low resistance.

Resistance of the cables, does not affect any speakers!
It may affect the amplifier driving them, if their internal output impedance is not low enough.
Actually a little resistance may help in some circumstances, though the damping factor may suffer ever so slightly.

 

[Speedskater]

To the contrary, differences in total end-to-end resistance is the most important factor in loudspeaker cable affecting loudspeaker response.
This applies to multi-driver loudspeakers that have an impedance curve that looks like a roller-coaster. The cable and the speaker form a series circuit. There will be different voltage divisions at the speaker's low and high impedance points.
Damping factor has nothing to do with it.

 

[Multicore]

An absurd point of view, which I agree is all too prevalent here at ASR.

If we keep adding DACs on the left side of the rankings chart and heaping them with praise for winning a new Hi Score then we will keep educating people that these differences matter.

Everything in the green and blue zone of the DAC ranking chart is better than the theoretically perfect CD player. You can't get into those zones without better than 16 bits per sample.

And then when we have a review of a $150 RCA interconnect cable that measures to be perfectly transparent and appears to be well constructed from good components the commenters pour oceans of scorn on it, the unethical people who make and sell it, and the rubes who buy it.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

To the contrary, differences in total end-to-end resistance is the most important factor in loudspeaker cable affecting loudspeaker response.
This applies to multi-driver loudspeakers that have an impedance curve that looks like a roller-coaster. The cable and the speaker form a series circuit. There will be different voltage divisions at the speaker's low and high impedance points.
Damping factor has nothing to do with it.

Let's keep things real.
We are talking differences of a fraction of an ohm, does your reasoning still hold water?

 

[DonR]

If we keep adding DACs on the left side of the rankings chart and heaping them with praise for winning a new Hi Score then we will keep educating people that these differences matter.

Everything in the green and blue zone of the DAC ranking chart is better than the theoretically perfect CD player. You can't get into those zones without better than 16 bits per sample.

And then when we have a review of a $150 RCA interconnect cable that measures to be perfectly transparent and appears to be well constructed from good components the commenters pour oceans of scorn on it, the unethical people who make and sell it, and the rubes who buy it.

Since my level of audibility is somewhere on the right side of the green area... maybe the far right... I would like to see more unique DACs tested. DACs that have a low price or some unique features. Inaudible SINAD has to be more-or-less a given now and most definitely for me.

 

[antcollinet]

Let's keep things real.
We are talking differences of a fraction of an ohm, does your reasoning still hold water?

Depends how big that fraction of an ohm is compared to the lowest impedance of the speaker.

Lets say a speaker impedance dips to 3 ohms at a particular frequency (not unusual). In this case a 0.3 ohm fraction of one ohm resistance will cause a 10% dip (-0.92dB) at that frequency.

 

[antcollinet]

And then when we have a review of a $150 RCA interconnect cable that measures to be perfectly transparent and appears to be well constructed from good components the commenters pour oceans of scorn on it, the unethical people who make and sell it, and the rubes who buy it.

That's a bit of a red herring.

The reason the $150 interconnect attracts scorn, is that they are invariably sold as needed for best sound - or improving sound. When in reality - even though perfectly transparent, they are no more transparent that the typical $2 interconnects given away with gear - which are also perfectly transparent.

 

[egellings]

Look at it this way:
When loudspeaker designers voice loudspeakers, they connect to the loudspeakers thru speaker cables.
If you connect to those speakers with cables that have a significant difference in total end-to-end resistance, you may change the voicing of the speakers.

For most living room setups, the R added by the cable will be insignificant compared to the R's found in crossovers and the speakers' voice coils. If a tube amp is used, toss in its output impedance, too. I'd be leery of a speaker that needed a specific model of cable to meet its specifications.

 

[Speedskater]

Let's keep things real.
We are talking differences of a fraction of an ohm, does your reasoning still hold water?

If we get to chose the loudspeakers, the cables and use trained listeners with demanding test tracks, yes.
Just listening to enjoyable music, nope.