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Aging Dynaudio AIR-15 DSP Speakers and repetitive repairs: Convert to external active or buy new L-C-R's?

Randyman...

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I have a many-years standing quandary. I have a L-C-R set of older Dynaudio AIR-15's (Active 8"/1" - internal TC-Electronics 96k DSP and 200w x2 B&O Amp Modules). These have required multiple repairs as the PSU section ends up failing in such a way that fries the DSP section; or the output section will go bad. Repairs run around $350 a pop, and I've had all of them repaired twice now. I'm experiencing yet another failure, and I'm fed-up with these repairs. The speakers were purchased used for $3000 ($1000/ea) and I've gotten ~15 years of use from them. New in the early 2000's, they sold for $2500/ea and were used at studios across the world. I'm actually running a smaller AIR-6 for Center at the moment (the AIR-15 Center is also dead) and it is sufficient for my wants (6.5"/1"; DSP + 200w x2).

I really like these speakers (also have dual AIR-BASE-2 subs with external Crest amplification), and I'm not looking to spend $5000+ on new L-C-R's just now. Their build quality is fairly high with a well-damped enclosure and excellent Dynaudio drivers (but from the 2000's). I basically have 5 options I'm looking at:

Option#1: My inclination is to convert to external DSP/Amplification with something like a MiniDSP HTx (Analog L-C-R RCA Inputs from AVR; 6x RCA or Balanced outs) feeding 6 channels of external amplification. I actually have plenty of un-used amplifiers (Sony TA-N77ES x2; TA-N80ES; TA-N55ES x2; DA777ES 5.1 Amp Section; SAE A502; and some others) - but would likely end up purchasing a 6-channel Buckeye or similar if I end up with satisfactory results.
MiniDSP HTx costs $1K - so I could play with this option for just the cost of the HTx and my time invested in cobbling it together and tuning with my existing amps. Add a dedicated 6-channel amp at a later date to simplify the system.
Pros = Tunability and will maintain the high-quality enclosure and drivers in the AIR's. Substantial output. $1K entry cost using my spare amplifiers; with option to add a 6-ch amp later.
Cons = Time/Cumbersome/Extra Components.

Option #2 (v2 of Option #1): Use an aftermarket bi-amp DSP Plate Amp (MiniDSP/Hypex; etc) to replace the AIR DSP/Amp module.
Pros: Less clutter than external active. Tunability. Will maintain the high-quality enclosure and drivers in the AIR's. Substantial output if using plate amp of sufficient power.
Cons: Still rather costly for quality units; no option to lessen initial cost by using my spare amplifiers. Likely require enclosure modifications to fit new module (not a deal breaker).

Option #3 (cheap option): Loosely copy the passive crossover from the similar Dynaudio BM-15P and run the AIR-15's "passive" off one of the aforementioned amps (200w x2). I'm suspecting I'd always be second-guessing this option as tunability is compromised - but the BM-15P is very close to the AIR-15 in driver selection and enclosure design - so betting the BM-15P's passive X-Over is pretty close to ideal "as-is". Tweak as needed (likely just a tweeter level adjustment).
Pros = Cheap and will maintain the high-quality enclosure and drivers in the AIR's. Substantial output with external amp.
Cons = Not easily tweakable, and I lean towards active Main L-C-R speakers.

Option #4: Purchase a L-C-R set of reasonably priced speakers that will match or surpass the 2000's era AIR-15's. Active or passive. New or used. Say $2000-$2500 for L-C-R setup.
My main dilemma here is the AIR-15's are a very "Pro" speaker with a nice enclosure, drivers and impressive output (again - retailed new for $2500/ea), and getting something that isn't a step back will not be a cheap prospect.
Pro's = Modern Driver Tech and Speaker Design not available when AIR's were made in 2000's; Modern DSP and AD/DA (if DSP active); Reliability.
Cons = Cost; likely to be a step-down from the AIR's in quality and output unless spending lots of cash. AIR-15's would sit un-used (a waste).

Option #5 (v2 of option #4): Pick up some used Dynaudio BM-15A Active monitors that are very close to the AIR-15, but use a simpler active analog amp section (no DSP, and don't have the PSU issues of the AIR modules). The BM-15A's are also older speakers from the 2000's, but they compare favorably to the AIR's, and can be found used for around $1000/pr.
Or even try to find the BM-15A Amp Modules separately to retrofit the AIR-15's - but those amp modules are not easy to come by and still pretty old. Smaller used BM-6A's might also be an option.
Pros = Still a great speaker with high output at a reasonable price.
Cons = Old, and actually a "step down" from AIR-15's in good working order. AIR-15's would sit un-used (a waste).

Additional info:
  • Smallish treated room; MLP approx 8 feet.
  • Dual L/R Subs that serve as bottoms/stands for mains (so looking for bookshelf/studio monitor form-factor - not a floor-stander); Generally cross low, but these subs are well-behaved into the 100-150Hz midbass region if needed (don't need crazy bass output from L-C-R mains, but strong SPL above 80-100Hz is desired).
  • AVR = Denon X3800H w/Dirac; generally used for TV viewing at moderate volumes, but want headroom for a bit of SPL (I'm also a musician and engineer with a broad tastes from "big bass in your face" to obscure jazz and even heavy stuff). Plan on using DIRAC or Audyssey in the AVR (not in the external DSP).
  • I'd really like to get a set of KH150's or Genelec's with similar output - but that's way out of my budget at the moment.

Link to AIR-15's for reference:

Thanks for any input as I've been grappling with what to do with these lovely speakers that need repetitive repairs w/o killing my pocket book or taking a step back sonically.
Randy V. :cool:
 
I can't help with your questions, but as you've had these for ages and seem to like and enjoy what they do, could you, an electrical.electronics engineer or Dynaudio offer reasons why the speakers fail every five or so years?

Do you leave them powered 24/7?

Is there a hot climate/internal heat issue which eventually knocks them out?

Is it marginally rated caps which eventually fail and take the supplies/boards with them (looks as if the much newer KEF LSX has this issue in the supply)

Can Dynaudio engineers offer help, even if you have to contact the factory directly?

The above is just shooting suggestions and hopefully not aimlessly, but it'd be a shame to ditch or butcher them right now unless Dynaudio abandon support on older models as Linn appear to have done with their black boxes (maybe not the shiny ones) for example, leaving owners high and dry with once valuable door-stops in some models if service isn't available.
 
Not aimless at all! I've been using an authorized Dynaudio repair center (T & R Electronics / Brian Thompson in AZ - I believe he is the only Authorized Dynaudio AIR repair center for AIR Modules in the USA). He does a mod to the PSU's that is supposed to help prevent from frying the DSP module when the PSU's inevitably fail. In their stock form, the PSU's DSP +V rail ends up over-shooting and over-volts the DSP module to the point of failure. I believe that has been mitigated with Brian's mod - but the PSU's themselves seem to be prone to failure - and the amp modules can also fail. The DSP modules are becoming scarce at this point. No new-stock is available - only used or repaired modules are available. You can search on eBay and see how many AIR's are being sold for parts / non-working due to these chronic electronics failures.

Going through so many repairs at this point - I'm almost wanting to try the MiniDSP HTx with my spare amplifiers. The TC-Electronic DSP and AD/DA conversion in the AIR modules is 2000's era tech - but still very well respected (Used in the famous TC Electronics M5000 Mainframe DSP Multi-Effects processor heard on thousands of commercial recordings). The B&O Amp Modules in the AIR modules are also 2000's tech - but fairly well respected for early Class-D designs. However, I can't help but think a 2020-era AD/DA and DSP (HTx) would easily match and likely "best" that part of the equation. And I'm pretty confident my 80's/90's Sony ES amplifiers are also higher caliber beefy A/B designs than a 2000's era Class-D amp - and a modern Buckeye amp is likely to be even better.

I really wish I had the budget for Neumann or Genelec L-C-R's that fit my needs - but simply way out of budget right now. Been eying some reasonably-priced modern speakers (some of Erin's reccommendations and others) - but feel I will be getting a down-grade with my budget.

Eager for more input or convincing on any of my options (and any I have not listed).
Thanks! Randy V.:cool:
 
I recently converted a pair of MTM 2 way active speakers, that I built 25 years ago, to 2.5 way. To do this I replaced the analog filter crossover with a minidsp Flex 8 and used REW for measurements to tune it. Using the Flex 8 was pretty easy, and I am happy with the results. I am using a Rotel RB976 MkII six channel amp for power.
 
I think it really depends on how experienced you are at filter design for a loudspeaker. It's easy to make something passable but takes a good bit of effort and understanding to do it well. If you have experience with this, integrating a DSP unit to handle filtering should be fairly straight forward. If not, I wouldn't even bother and I'd just get some BM-15's which I'd wager should at least sound somewhat similar to the AIR model. However I'm not aware of any data on either speaker so who knows.

I will say, custom active filters are wonderful, but it's definitely as user friendly in terms of just plug and play. I often find myself endlessly tweaking my filters and god forbid something goes wrong with the setup while I'm away, no way anyone in my home could ever get it all working again. Just something to consider.

Option 3 won't work at all so I wouldn't even bother with that. The tweeter on the bm15p is offset while the AIR is not, that alone will constitute changes in the passive xover far greater than just simple tweeter padding alterations.

but feel I will be getting a down-grade with my budget.

With all due respect, the design of a 10" to 1" is just kind of, silly and has a lot of inherent problems, it's not hard or expensive to find something that performs and likely sounds better.

I would certainly not bother trying to utilize the stock amplifier/dsp in any shape or form, it would be throwing money at something that sounds like it's guaranteed to fail.

You could also send one to me and I'd figure out the filter tasks for it, both active and passive. My fee is two Jr. Bacon cheeseburgers.
 
I never understood why Dynaudio and Morel define their driver sizes the way they do - but while they call the AIR-15 a 10", it's actually closer to 8". I agree these larger driver sizes make directivity management and midrange "detail" difficult - but we do have things like MoFi doing modern 8" and 10" point source 2-ways to great success. The output from these AIR-15's is pretty astonishing.

Thanks for the kind offer! I'm somewhat comfortable with DIY active setups - but I have not done this exact experiment before. If I continue down this "external active" road, I'll get a baseline, and eventually measure the original module outputs to get closer to the factory tuning. I have an older EV DC-One DSP that I might play with on the L/R pair - but time is tight.

I'm still pondering some other options. As a stop-gap measure, I might go after a trio of used 1st gen KH-120A's in the $1500 range (but will be 10-15 years old in that price range). I can always find a use for them elsewhere (other systems; move to surrounds) if I end up upgrading to modern KH150's or whatever. I know the 120A's will fit most of my needs, but they will not "get up and go" quite like the AIR-15's do in terms of volume and that snare chest-punch I sometimes crave. At reasonable volumes, I would expect better clarity and midrange coherence from these smaller speakers - even if they will look a little anemic in aesthetics.

What other speakers might you fine people recommend in my situation? I'm more than likely looking at something used in the $2000 (L-C-R) - and I don't mind cosmetic wear-and-tear. I've been partial to active speakers for 20+ years - but a passive that will fit the bill would not be written-off.

Thanks! Randy V. :cool:
 
hi I know this is a few months old but I'd be interested to hear what you decided doing. I havnt read every word of the thread yet as it's late at night but I wanted to chime in and say I own bothe the bm15a and the bm15 passive . I much prefer the sound of the passive. the active version is slightly punchier in the bass but the passive is massively smoother through the high mid / trebble . I have always heard sibilance from the active that grates after a short while . I eventually added some damping above the mid drivers frame as recommended by Danny Richie and that helped a lot( he cited diffraction off the frame off the non flush mounted ) midbass driver but, didn't fix the slightly forward ballance of the speaker . they are amazing monitors there's just something in the sound that doesn't sit quite right with me . I have also had to have the actives repaired several times once by a company that seemed out of their depth and caused more problems that needed to be repaired again. thankfully I finally found somebody that really knew their stuff and they've been faultless for several years now however they cost me around £650 in repairs all together . finally I believe the midbass driver is actually a 9.5 inch it is as I'm sure you know an absolute beast and having tried it with less powerfull amps with which it always sounded as if it was asking for more power than they could deliver. It really demands a lot of watts I use an mc2 mc1250 with maybe 800w per channel and they sound so relaxed and unstrained
kind regards from the UK James
 
Hi there - fellow AIR fanboy :)

I'm still limping along for now. My left AIR-15 module failed (third time) - so I migrated the Center to the Left position, then broke apart my pair of AIR-6's (used elsewhere) to use one for Center to hold me over. Uggghhhhhh.

I'm looking at the KH-150's from MusicStore (import) for like $1200/ea (went up since last time I checked!) - but I'm holding off as long as I can until my holiday bonus comes through.

I don't think I will be perusing the used BM15a route (I actually use BM6a's for surrounds!) - or finding a trio of used KM-120a's as a stop-gap measure as I was pondering above. Seems like a sideways move. I don't think KH120-II's would be enough (close - but the 150's do better max SPL from 60-90Hz). And I'm reading more and more QC issues with the KH's that are giving me pause.

I share your observations in the slightly "pinched" sound of the AIR's. It's not as pronounced in the AIR-6, but still there. One of the times I was w/o the AIR-15's for repairs, I used a tiny pair of Sonodyne SRP400's (4"/1" 25w+25w A/B analog active) with Dynaudio Subs crossed around 120Hz. It was some of the most magical soundstage and "open" midrange (very present w/o being forward at all) I ever experienced in my room - but was severely SPL limited. And only works with subs and sub placement that will play nicely up to 120Hz (my AIR-BASE-2 subs act as bottoms/stands for the mains, and are very happy to play up to 150Hz and beyond if needed).

Regarding using power amps with the AIR's - I ripped the AIR amps out of the AIR-BASE-2 subs a long time ago in favor of a Crest CA9 that drives the snot out of them - with much more damping and control than the AIR B&O amp modules could ever imagine. I only had to replace two of the drivers so far :D (I use great restraint with 1800w on 4x 9.5" subs!). I know that task is not as cut-and-dry with the 2-ways and MF/HF crossover - and I'm wanting to get a 21st century speaker at this point.

The Kali IN-8 3-way was on my short list - but again, I feel it will be a sideways upgrade if not a downgrade. The IN-8 cabinet w/drivers included (no amp) is $200 - even if it was fantastic - I'd always think about how "cheap" they were. Those tiny 4" Sonodyne's I mentioned were $750/pr!

I'll certainly update this thread when any changes go down. I almost placed an order for KH150's last month - but self-restraint kicked in and told me I should save and wait for the holiday bonus.

Shout back anytime!
RV
 
hiya thanks for replying ! so ive got the bm15a ive never heard the air series but have always been intrigued by the larger 3way models , also always had a feeling that dynaudio cut the quality of their amp pacs when the got bought out by tc electronics .So what about 2 stereo amps and electronic crossover . I don't know if they're available over there but mc2 do electronic crossover cards for their "t series" . if that's not an option what about a software dsp and an usb interface to find the perfect crossover setting then this could be replicated in an analogue crossover . I've seen the passive crossover for sale as a spare part for around 100usd each wouldnt be too expensive an experiment to try out .or what about trying to pick up a set of m3 main monitors ? be an immense l and r setup
 
I'm looking at the KH-150's from MusicStore (import) for like $1200/ea (went up since last time I checked!) - but I'm holding off as long as I can until my holiday bonus comes through.


The Kali IN-8 3-way was on my short list - but again, I feel it will be a sideways upgrade if not a downgrade. The IN-8 cabinet w/drivers included (no amp) is $200 - even if it was fantastic - I'd always think about how "cheap" they were. Those tiny 4" Sonodyne's I mentioned were $750/pr!


Shout back anytime!
RV

Those two options are so much better in many ways. I wouldn't hesitate to pick either one over the Air-15.

Like most things, it gets easier and cheaper over time to deliver an excellent product in it's given category. Air series is over 20 years old now. If this site teaches you anything it's that there is little correlation between speaker cost and performance.
 
I'd go with the DSP route and use (at least in the short term) the big Sony power amps. That is the least cost option to see if you can duplicate or at come close to the initial setup and sound of the original design, but done externally.

Can you obtain any curves/corrections from one or other of the speakers amp/dsp or are they all too far gone? That would be a good start.

Then if you like the sound (with the DSP/Sonys) you could go the 6 channel Buckeye route, but bear in mind, you are multiplying your likelihood of failure again with mulitiple cheap SMPS supplies and Class D issues. The Sony's have proven themselves and are nearly 35 years old at this point and still going strong. They probably owe you nothing. My Tan-77es amps will be buried with me- they are probably the best buy in power amplifiers I own.

Use the TAN-80es for bass (it has a bit more power and control than the 77es).
 
I'd go with the DSP route and use (at least in the short term) the big Sony power amps. That is the least cost option to see if you can duplicate or at come close to the initial setup and sound of the original design, but done externally.

Can you obtain any curves/corrections from one or other of the speakers amp/dsp or are they all too far gone? That would be a good start.

Then if you like the sound (with the DSP/Sonys) you could go the 6 channel Buckeye route, but bear in mind, you are multiplying your likelihood of failure again with mulitiple cheap SMPS supplies and Class D issues. The Sony's have proven themselves and are nearly 35 years old at this point and still going strong. They probably owe you nothing. My Tan-77es amps will be buried with me- they are probably the best buy in power amplifiers I own.

Use the TAN-80es for bass (it has a bit more power and control than the 77es).
Dang you @restorer-john ! Being all logical and budget-minded :) You are so "based" (as the youngsters say)! Or more appropriate for ASR - You are "Grounded" :facepalm: :p

Whatever route I chose - I can promise I will experiment with migrating the AIR-15's to an external active setup - even if they get retired from main L-C-R duties. I won't be getting rid of them bar none. If anything - I'll replace the Mackie HR824's in the rehearsal room with the re-built AIR system down the road :)

Those Sony ES amps have been sitting idle for quite a while - and I'd love a reason to drag them back out - and even attempt a repair on one of the TA-N77ES' that "let the smoke out" many years ago! I still have a working AIR system, so measuring the output to reverse-engineer the XO curves/slopes and EQ should be fairly simple once I actually get around to it. I have a feeling they went overboard with overly steep filters and such - but we will see. I generally use shallower 12/18dB slopes when DIY'ing active crossovers (seem easier to get jiving, and less ringing) - but I'm certainly not a legit speaker designer.

I'm still wanting a 21st century speaker for main L-C-R duties, and a Christmas bonus might just push me over the edge into KH land. No matter how good the Kali 3-ways might be - I'm human with biases, and will always know the IN-8 drivers + enclosure are only worth $200 retail (costs less than ONE 4" raw midrange driver in my car stereo system) - and I will secretly desire the KH150's or some shiny Genelecs every time I crank on the system (even if subconsciously).

Updates to come as I rack my brain and my budget...
RV

Oh - And one correction from a previous post of mine:
I run the BM6P Passives as surrounds off the AVR-3800h. I incorrectly stated I run BM6A's (Active) as surrounds (was confusing KH120a and BM6a/BM6P too many model #'s!). The BM6P's are of the same ilk as the AIR-6's with a very similar (same?) tweeter - just passive. No current plans to migrate/upgrade those as 5.1 is plenty for me (well - I also have front-wide-heights I use sometimes with upmixing - but not a true 7.1 or anything Atmos). Those BM6P's are basically full-range monsters for surround needs even when run passively off the AVR. I'm actually wanting to try using them full-range with DLBC once available.
 
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I'm planning on building a 3way monitor from my two pairs of bm15s with 2x 9.5inch bass drivers a 3inch middome /or a nice 5inch midrange if I don't like the dome and choice of either tweeters from the bm15s .I managed to find a pair of n.o.s d76f 3 inch domes a while ago on ebay. could you do something similar ? I think that should solve the main "problem " with the bm15s , the jump from big midbass to 1inch dome with no waveguide or midrange driver to more closely match the directivity of the drivers at crossover. I know the d76 was used by klien and Hunmel in its big 3 way monitors not sure about the new versions but there's a few options for middomes atm
 
So - Xmas bonus time is creeping up - can't believe it's November! I'm still lusting after a trio of KH-150's, but the standby issues and need for eventual repairs are still giving me pause. As is the slight uncertainty of import tariffs - even if purchasing all three KH150's separately.

For the Standby issue - I'm not opposed to leaving them on and disabling standby (how will that affect longevity?) - or possibly putting them on a switched power strip that turns on when the AVR turns on. Do they power-on/off cleanly in this scenario?

For the duty/tariffs/VAT from Germany to USA: https://www.simplyduty.com/import-calculator/ seems to suggest a duty for "Electronics" valued from $1250 (qty 1) to $3750 (qty 3) from Germany to USA would be 2% and no VAT. Does that sound right? Tried using "Speakers" in the Product Description, but it came back with 0 duty even for $15,000 declared value :oops:

Thinking I'll buy a pair first and see what happens. If 2% duty is correct, then: $1269/ea x 2% = $25 duty per speaker; so the pair would run $50 duty plus $49 flat shipping fee. I was thinking duty would be MUCH higher than 2%, and also include additional VAT. If this is correct, looking at $2637/pr to my door. Domestically, looking at $1750 + 8.25% Sales Tax = $1894/ea or $3788/pr to my door (likely free shipping).

So saving over $1150 on the pair from Musicstore.com and will end up with a "free" (well, $119) KM150 center if this works out (vs. buying domestically)...

Of course if the import fees are wrong, and they end up with additional VAT - who knows what that could jump up to?

Not pulling the trigger this week- but the time is approaching! Talk me into or out-of any of my options :) If the speakers are considered as a set, this will be my single most expensive gear purchase in my 50 years (close seconds were my RME MADIface-XT for $2500; and a NAD T175-HD also for $2500). So kind of a big deal around here :)

Toodles :cool:
 
So, Bonus is incoming! It was larger than I thought - but I'm still looking to go with the Musicstore.com route to save 1/3 the cost (3 for the price of 2 domestically). Anyone ever have an import experience with active speakers, and were the tariffs in that 2%-4% range, or were they much higher? It would basically take a 30% tariff to make buying domestically in the USA a better option (returns or whatever, also plus sales tax).

With Inauguration day closing in, I really want to get this done before the end of the year (and higher tariffs). Thanks for any reports from those that have purchased Active Speakers internationally!
 
Rolled the dice, and ordered a single KH-150 from MusicStore.com to see what happens! I will report back as the delivery progresses, with hopes of ordering 2 more (singles ?) if this goes well. Curious if anyone else has done this with the KH150's since their "Per speaker" price is above the $750 import limit that the KH-120-II sneaks by...

Reading through hundreds of posts, it seemed most of the QC issues were with the 120-II's, and it appears 120-II's are readily available in B-Stock - so gives me a bit more confidence in the 150. I'm aware the 150 might also suffer from the standby bug that seems prevalent on the 120-II's, but I don't plan on using the extended standby mode.
 
I'd double check and make sure the warranty is still valid in this purchase. I believe genelec for instance doesn't provide warranty service if a product is imported to a country where it's available domestically.
 
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I'd double check and make sure the warranty is still valid in this purchase. I believe genelec for instance doesn't provide warranty service if a product is imported to a country where it's available domestically.
Was a concern for sure. The word seems to be: They are warrantied anywhere in the world as long as purchased from an authorized dealer.
 
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