Kii Three Measurements

[dfuller]

I hope you are right about the DDs - where does Toole talk about cardioid speakers? I can't remember that... I thought the Beolabs were the first and they were not introduced at the time his book came out.

Toole's main takeaways are that on and off axis frequency response matter a lot - on axis should be as flat and smooth as you can get away with, and off axis should have a similar character to on-axis (i.e., the curve should be roughly the same shape as on axis). Cardioid just extends that controlled directivity down lower. Re: linear vs minimum phase, technically speaking linear is better in crossovers as you lose the weirdness that steep phase rotation from pass filters can cause, and it doesn't cause pre-ringing like linear phase usually does because when you sum them they cancel each other out.

Also, Erin already put the 8C on his NFS. It's exactly as textbook perfect as you'd expect. Kii Threes, too. The D&D is a hair smoother than the Kii, but we're splitting hairs there. The big place the 8C wins is its short term compression behavior, which is markedly better than the Kiis.

 

[ferrellms]

Toole's main takeaways are that on and off axis frequency response matter a lot - on axis should be as flat and smooth as you can get away with, and off axis should have a similar character to on-axis (i.e., the curve should be roughly the same shape as on axis). Cardioid just extends that controlled directivity down lower. Re: linear vs minimum phase, technically speaking linear is better in crossovers as you lose the weirdness that steep phase rotation from pass filters can cause, and it doesn't cause pre-ringing like linear phase usually does because when you sum them they cancel each other out.

Also, Erin already put the 8C on his NFS. It's exactly as textbook perfect as you'd expect. Kii Threes, too. The D&D is a hair smoother than the Kii, but we're splitting hairs there. The big place the 8C wins is its short term compression behavior, which is markedly better than the Kiis.

I doubt if the compression issue is audible at normal volumes (I have not heard DDs but I can't say I have heard compresssion in the Kiis at my moderate listening levels, just by far the most realistic bass ever). But the point remains that the speaker preference ratings ignore a major improvement in speaker technology, and Toole was unaware of it -

"Toole's main takeaways are that on and off axis frequency response matter a lot - on axis should be as flat and smooth as you can get away with, and off axis should have a similar character to on-axis (i.e., the curve should be roughly the same shape as on axis). Cardioid just extendds that controlled directivity down lower."

There are lots of speakers that are flat and smooth on and off axis. Cardioid is a different story - less sound behind the speaker and bouncing of the wall there and coloring the sound. While you could claim that this is "just extending directionality lower", it requires completely new technology that Toole does not mention. Cardioid speakers are a breed apart.

Have you heard them for any length of time with familiar recordings?

 

[Absolute]

The cardioid nature makes an enormous difference below 100 hz as the Kiis have by far the most realistic bass I have heard from a home speaker.

I think I demonstrated with measurements that the cardioide didn't make much of a difference in the lower frequencies in my room. If it does in your room, I'm sure plenty of people would be interested to see the measurements to confirm it.

I don't doubt your subjective experience of bass realism. Based on my on experience I just think the reasons for that experience is better explained by bass extension and the cardioide effect above 100 hz instead of below.

I doubt if the compression issue is audible at normal volumes (I have not heard DDs but I can't say I have heard compresssion in the Kiis at my moderate listening levels, just by far the most realistic bass ever). But the point remains that the speaker preference ratings ignore a major improvement in speaker technology, and Toole was unaware of it -

For me the compression issue is relative. Room size and acoustics, distance to speaker, spl demands and type of source material would be the main things I would look at.
In a normal-sized European living room with music at comfortably loud sound levels, no issues for me at all.
Given the size of speaker and drivers, there's a certain limit to how loud these things will go before audibly distorting.

Since cardioide speakers are nothing new, I doubt Toole didn't know about the principle. But even if they existed for normal home usage back then I doubt the cardioide itself would make much of a difference in the majority of testing due to the large room with great distance to any reflective wall in the Harman speaker shuffe room.

 

[CleanSound]

I do. 100%.

My question is more about value relative to other alternatives. The BXTs extension modules seem like a poor value to me, but again I've never directly compared them to the best alternative(4 separate omni subs and miniDSP to integrate), hence my question.

I think they're $30k USD? It's hard to spend that kind of money on bookshelf's. I get it that value is the the eye of the beholder. But only the top 1% of people in this world can afford to spend $30k USD on a pair of speakers. And of that 1%, I doubt that more than a 10% are into HiFi audio and the remaining, will probably prefer something else.

$30k USD is a very hard sell. Bring it down to $15k with the BXT, now we're talking. Yeah, yeah, wishful thinking, I know.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I think they're $30k USD? It's hard to spend that kind of money on bookshelf's. I get it that value is the the eye of the beholder. But only the top 1% of people in this world can afford to spend $30k USD on a pair of speakers. And of that 1%, I doubt that more than a 10% are into HiFi audio and the remaining, will probably prefer something else.

$30k USD is a very hard sell. Bring it down to $15k with the BXT, now we're talking. Yeah, yeah, wishful thinking, I know.

The new Magico M7 is $375K
So $30K feels like a bargain

 

[CleanSound]

The new Magico M7 is $375K
So $30K feels like a bargain

Indeed, the M7 is probably only for the .00001% of the world population. That number is better than any SINAD ASR measured

 

[ferrellms]

I think I demonstrated with measurements that the cardioide didn't make much of a difference in the lower frequencies in my room. If it does in your room, I'm sure plenty of people would be interested to see the measurements to confirm it.

I don't doubt your subjective experience of bass realism. Based on my on experience I just think the reasons for that experience is better explained by bass extension and the cardioide effect above 100 hz instead of below.


For me the compression issue is relative. Room size and acoustics, distance to speaker, spl demands and type of source material would be the main things I would look at.
In a normal-sized European living room with music at comfortably loud sound levels, no issues for me at all.
Given the size of speaker and drivers, there's a certain limit to how loud these things will go before audibly distorting.

Since cardioide speakers are nothing new, I doubt Toole didn't know about the principle. But even if they existed for normal home usage back then I doubt the cardioide itself would make much of a difference in the majority of testing due to the large room with great distance to any reflective wall in the Harman speaker shuffe room.

The point is that cardioid speakers will sound less colored in nearly ANY room. In the picture above - what is all that behind the speakers? Absorption? If it is, then the tests are invalid for listeners in normal rooms. Otherwise, all of the omnidirectional sound will reflect from that wall and color the sound on the couch via delayed interference with the direct sound. Cardioid speakers will produce less of that omnidirectional sound and thus sound less colored. It is that simple.

Why do spinorama tests if all that matters is REW tests of frequency response at the listening position?

Sonarworks shows that my Genelecs and subwoofer have very similar frequency response to my Kii 3's.

The Kiis sound *warning of subjective opinion* MUCH more transparent and revealing, despite the fact that the overall tonality is quite similar. This must be due to the cardioid design removing all that coloration energy from the room.

 

[feitaishi]

The point is that cardioid speakers will sound less colored in nearly ANY room. In the picture above - what is all that behind the speakers? Absorption? If it is, then the tests are invalid for listeners in normal rooms. Otherwise, all of the omnidirectional sound will reflect from that wall and color the sound on the couch via delayed interference with the direct sound. Cardioid speakers will produce less of that omnidirectional sound and thus sound less colored. It is that simple.

Why do spinorama tests if all that matters is REW tests of frequency response at the listening position?

Sonarworks shows that my Genelecs and subwoofer have very similar frequency response to my Kii 3's.

The Kiis sound *warning of subjective opinion* MUCH more transparent and revealing, despite the fact that the overall tonality is quite similar. This must be due to the cardioid design removing all that coloration energy from the room.

I think it's due the design that kii intentionally makes the midsound forward for an easier mixing.

 

[Absolute]

The point is that cardioid speakers will sound less colored in nearly ANY room. In the picture above - what is all that behind the speakers? Absorption? If it is, then the tests are invalid for listeners in normal rooms. Otherwise, all of the omnidirectional sound will reflect from that wall and color the sound on the couch via delayed interference with the direct sound. Cardioid speakers will produce less of that omnidirectional sound and thus sound less colored. It is that simple.

It's never that simple. The effect of cardioide on subjective quality depends on time, strength and frequency spectrum of reflections relative to direct sound.

As for the Harman double blind listening room, Google it and take a look.

Why do spinorama tests if all that matters is REW tests of frequency response at the listening position?

Why put random words in my mouth?

Sonarworks shows that my Genelecs and subwoofer have very similar frequency response to my Kii 3's.

The Kiis sound *warning of subjective opinion* MUCH more transparent and revealing, despite the fact that the overall tonality is quite similar. This must be due to the cardioid design removing all that coloration energy from the room.

It COULD be because of the cardioide dispersion pattern, but how did you come to that conclusion?

Anyway, I argued that the dispersion didn't matter below 100 hz in my room and I showed measurements to support it. You have a subwoofer, so you can easily cross the Kiis at 100 hz to that sub and demonstrate with measurements that the cardioide effect matters below 100 hz in your room.

 

[ferrellms]

It's never that simple. The effect of cardioide on subjective quality depends on time, strength and frequency spectrum of reflections relative to direct sound.

As for the Harman double blind listening room, Google it and take a look.


Why put random words in my mouth?

It COULD be because of the cardioide dispersion pattern, but how did you come to that conclusion?

Anyway, I argued that the dispersion didn't matter below 100 hz in my room and I showed measurements to support it. You have a subwoofer, so you can easily cross the Kiis at 100 hz to that sub and demonstrate with measurements that the cardioide effect matters below 100 hz in your room.

Well, for what it is worth, many professional recording engineers in reviews have commented on the transparency of the kii and assigned it to their cardioid nature. I guess I just assumed that all the pro reviewers knew what they were talking about (as well as the designers and commentary from all over) as well as my own intuition. Cheers!

 

[Absolute]

Well, for what it is worth, many professional recording engineers in reviews have commented on the transparency of the kii and assigned it to their cardioid nature. I guess I just assumed that all the pro reviewers knew what they were talking about (as well as the designers and commentary from all over) as well as my own intuition. Cheers!

Many of them certainly know what they are talking about, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
I'm not questioning the benefit of cardioide dispersion in general, only in the frequency region where the impulse sensitivity of our hearing is so low that the steady-state frequency response is representative of how we experience sound.

While different sized rooms and distance from speakers to walls may raise or lower the arbitrary 100 hz line a bit, I think the different in-room measurements on the web, combined with the anechoic measurements of the speaker and the knowledge of how both the room and ear works in the lower region, goes a fair way to support my own experience and measurements in this regard.

I'd probably go so far as to say the cardioide's biggest benefit in the modal region is the reduced sbir from the front wall, but I feel much less confident of the accuracy of this statement since we're quickly getting into the time-sensitive region of our hearing above 100 hz.