KEF R11 vs. Q900 Blind test can’t tell difference! HELP

[polmuaddib]

Now, seriously, it is great you did the blind test, however hard to do. You have to consider the validity of that test, also, because it is not a double blind test, as I understand, because you and your wife were the test subjects and administrators at the same time.

Everybody here is taking your test at face value, just because you got the result that speakers sound the same, which might be the expected result here, and it might be a different story if you found that you liked the more expensive ones.

One other thing you need to consider is which pair makes you more happy and what the price difference mean to you both. We, humans, are visual animals and rely on other senses to form our perception of the world around us.

On the other hand, even if you found that R11 do sound better, you would have to decide if that SQ difference is worth the price difference...

 

[Tangband]

Now, seriously, it is great you did the blind test, however hard to do. You have to consider the validity of that test, also, because it is not a double blind test, as I understand, because you and your wife were the test subjects and administrators at the same time.

Everybody here is taking your test at face value, just because you got the result that speakers sound the same, which might be the expected result here, and it might be a different story if you found that you liked the more expensive ones.

One other thing you need to consider is which pair makes you more happy and what the price difference mean to you both. We, humans, are visual animals and rely on other senses to form our perception of the world around us.

On the other hand, even if you found that R11 do sound better, you would have to decide if that SQ difference is worth the price difference...

Its impossible to do a valid blind test with four stereospeakers in a room because the sound will be very different because of the different placement of the speakers.

 

[thewas]

Thanks for openly sharing your results which don't really surprise me, as below is true:

That is a typical outcome of a real blind test with speakers which have a similar spinorama and no major errors. You can train you critical hearing to faster and better identify the small differences. But essentially the outcome in terms of preference won't change much.

Just as a fun thought, be glad you didn't compare blindly audio electronics as there the audible differences vanish even for much higher prices differences (except poorly engineered audiophool constructions with larger deviations).

 

[dlaloum]

Yes, I just noticed. Less is more ?

Yes well, I have noticed that some of my favourite 2 way bookshelves have a minimalist or no crossover... but doing that requires that the drivers natural rolloff be appropriate - typically viable only for those who manufacture their own drivers!

 

[Beave]

Yes well, I have noticed that some of my favourite 2 way bookshelves have a minimalist or no crossover... but doing that requires that the drivers natural rolloff be appropriate - typically viable only for those who manufacture their own drivers!

What two way bookshelf speakers have no crossover?

 

[maty]

You can improve the Q900.

Furniture: viscoelastic material / bitumen / alubutyl / No Rez....

Crossover, Q950 (worst components than Q900). Without to spend a lot of money...

 

[maty]

KEF Q500 Crossover upgrade

KEF Q500 Crossover upgrade

Hi, I want to upgrade the crossover of my KEF Q500 spealkers: It's a 2.5 way bass reflex. It has a bilopar M.D.L. 1000uF 50V, and I would like to know if I can change it to a Nichicon KZ 1000uF 50V, or I must use a bipolar cap? Thanks!

www.diyaudio.com

 

[Beave]

 

[BoredErica]

I think it's ok not to hear a difference and it's good to share those kinds of experiences. Otherwise other people will feel like an idiot and not share their experiences when they fail to hear those differences too. If there's no real difference there's no real difference. Save that $3000 and spend it on something else unless you want $3000 decoration for your living room.

Just because somebody out there can potentially hear a difference doesn't mean you have to care.

 

[nerdstrike]

This seems like a success to me!

 

[MaxwellsEq]

What two way bookshelf speakers have no crossover?

The original Epos ES14 speakers had a single capacitor "crossover" feeding the tweeter.

 

[DanielT]

For the OP, this post might be completely OT but I'm writing it anyway. Consider it a general tip regarding testing different speakers.

If you are going to test, why not test and compare your current speakers with something different? A pair of omni speakers? Maybe you would like that type of speaker? That if you listen a lot to live music, big band jazz, orchestral classical music for example. Music that may then sound "bigger" in your listening room (at the expense of precise pinpoint localization of instruments). Here Floyd Toole regarding omnis, 524:

omnidirectional loudspeakers = best design available

Your sarcasm was neither appreciated nor necessary, and I see Dr Toole has done me — and more importantly, the thread — a huge favour in his posts above. Cheers Indeed he did and I'm thankful for that. It might mean that your task is less needed though. Meaning you don't need to be his...

audiosciencereview.com

In addition to two-channel stereo, you can perhaps try upmixing and using more channels. However, I'm not well versed in that, so if you're interested in it, others can give you tips and advice.
(if you listen to music that would work well for that)

omnidirectional loudspeakers - Google Search

You might really dislike omnis and think they just "smear" out the sound and destroys the ability to pinpoint instruments and so on but then at least you've tested it.

Disadvantages of omnis:
(plus some aspects regarding Duevel Venus)

Lab Report
One of the core problems of designing a 'horizontal omni' like the Venus, which attempts to achieve 360o radiation in the horizontal plane using drivers facing upwards and downwards, is that you listen off-axis to the drivers. Compensating for that inevitably results in low sensitivity, and even then the frequency response is typically uneven. Both problems are reflected in the Venus. Duevel claims 88dB sensitivity but our measured pink noise figure was way below that at 81.3dB SPL for 2.83V input at 1m. And even this has taken moderately low impedance to achieve. Our measured minimum modulus of 3.7ohm accords well with Duevel's nominal 4ohm but high impedance phase angles mean that the EPDR (equivalent peak dissipation resistance) dips to lows of 1.7ohm/601Hz and 1.9ohm/87Hz. Coupled with the low sensitivity, this makes the Venus quite a challenging amplifier load.

Duevel Venus also has very poor FR:

Duevel Venus Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report One of the core problems of designing a 'horizontal omni' like the Venus, which attempts to achieve 360o radiation in the horizontal plane using drivers facing upwards and downwards, is that you listen off-axis to the drivers. Compensating for that inevitably results in low...

www.hifinews.com

Duevel Venus - omnidirectional highend home-audio speaker

the only one high-end audio horn-speakers with a perfect omnidirectional character, like the acoustical ideal of a point source, with a new quality of natural music reproduction.

www.duevel.com

So as usual, even with omnis, research if they have sensible FR.

 

[bodhi]

Just because somebody out there can potentially hear a difference doesn't mean you have to care.

In addition, just because someone says there is huge, night and day difference, doesn't mean that the person really even feels that way. And even if he really feels that way it might be the result of mental conditioning, learning to get major emotional reaction to pretty minor things.

There is of course nothing wrong with this kind of conditioning and it is the basis of many hobbies. It's just that as some dude that just wants his music to sound good you can't take the reviews of passionate hobbyists at face value.

 

[dlaloum]

What two way bookshelf speakers have no crossover?

Australian Richters have only a cap I believe, as do the Gallo Strada's (the now discontinued Reference 3/3.1/3.2/3.5 had only a cap between the mid and tweeter, but a crossover for the woofer).

And I believe that Piezo tweeters don't require a crossover ...

 

[Muddywaters]

Reference 3a employs the strategy throughout their range.

“An excellent non inductive capacitor is used as the sole high pass filter at an exact frequency point to coherently integrate the drivers.”

 

[geox]

Australian Richters have only a cap I believe, as do the Gallo Strada's (the now discontinued Reference 3/3.1/3.2/3.5 had only a cap between the mid and tweeter, but a crossover for the woofer).

And I believe that Piezo tweeters don't require a crossover ...

I heard Richter's at last year's stereonet audio show at Pullman , Melbourne .

They had such great sound.i wish they published measurements

 

[dlaloum]

I think that anywhere around the critical midrange - where our ears are most sensitive - crossovers can be problematic.... often the best sounding speakers therefore avoid crossovers.... a well designed 2 way can go down to around 60Hz (or lower) with nothing more than a capacitor for the tweeter, or the use of a piezo tweeter - I started noticing those designs years ago, after investigating several speakers I particularly liked the sound of, and finding out that they all had this feature in common.... even though the Richters (traditional 2 way bookshelves) and the Gallo Strada's - a scifi / lifestyle looking thing were very very different in appearance, some aspects of their sound were very much alike...

 

[steve59]

I had a pair of Kef R105/3 and bought home a pair of q5, The q5 cost what I paid in sales tax for the R105/3 yet they sounded more similar than different! The reason is of coarse because the target sound is the same for every speaker the brand makes. In my case the better the recording the more the reference speakers shone and the worse recordings gave the less resolving q speakers the edge.

 

[JeremyFife]

Interesting thread, thanks.
It's certainly made me think about looking 'downwards' in a range of Speakers, rather than thinking I should get the best I can afford - great sense check

 

[Zensō]

What was it about the Q900 that you didn’t like? If there wasn’t anything obvious and specific, you might find that no amount of upgrading (within reason) is going to significantly improve your listening experience (aesthetics are another thing). Past a certain level of competence, diminishing returns set in big time and everything in the chain (including speakers) start sounding similar (assuming you’re not looking for some particular coloration). I speak about this from my personal struggles with upgradeitis...