Kali Audio IN-8 Studio Monitor Review

[bagkyr]

thank you @napilopez for your response. I'm waiting for the retest results because i want to do a multichannel setup 7.4.4 with these or the presonus sceptre s8.

 

[Charles Sprinkle]

So no measurements of IN-8 from you after all this?

FYI, since I did not hear back from Kali, I purchased an IN-8 today from Amazon. Should be here this coming week.

Apologies for the delay. We wanted to understand what happened, We were able to get the loudspeaker you reviewed back from our dealer since there are not many returns, but we just received it this week. It was immediately evident that the loudspeaker is indeed damaged. Perhaps you missed it, but the surround is pulled away from the frame as can be seen in the picture you took (attached, circled).

From another angle, this is what it looks like.

Even with the damage, I was not able to reproduce your measurements unless the speaker was pushed all the way into limit. I'm only using a portable rig on ground plane, so we are having this sample and another from inventory sent to an independent lab for full measurement set. We will publish their results.

It is hard for me to understand how a clearly defective loudspeaker would somehow slip through 100% end of line testing including visual inspection rub/buzz, frequency response, and distortion test (3 separate stations). At the same time, I never would have anticipated that the surround could come loose during shipping / handling, as it is captured between the rear mounted frame and the baffle. I will be initiating 8 discipline problem solving action in order to fully understand how this could have happened. Rest assured we will diligently work to make sure this odd defect doesn't happen again.

Best regards,
Charles

 

[Xulonn]

Thanks you for your response, Charles. This is a win-win situation. Kali will be able to improve its product quality and QA inspection procedures, and Amir is now aware of another physical flaw to look for when he examines speakers prior to testing. (However, some here will continue to whine and complain, but that is a variation of human nature that shows up in a few disgruntled forum visitors.)

The independent testing plus Amir's re-testing of a known good example will benefit everyone. I have no doubt that if there are differences in the results, the reasons for any discrepancies will be discovered, and testing procedures and reporting will be modified to produce valid, consistent, and believable results in the future.

 

[Neddy]

As an IN-8 owner, Mr. Sprinkle's response is heartening - and appropriate.
Opportunities to chase down and get back damaged/defective product during initial production runs are rare, and take commitment to follow up on.
I worked for a company who had repeated problems with mechanical failures for product shipped to a certain region of the country.
It took us (me) nearly a year to track it down to a particular Fedex airport terminal where we found they were literally kicking heavy boxes off the cargo freighter (plane) - so about a 12' foot fall on to concrete...but they did it in such a way that the packaging/box did not show any obvious damage (probably to hear the nice clean Whop! as they hit).
After that we installed g-meter trackers in select shipments to sample what was really going on 'out there'! (And was superb data for our packaging/shipping consultants to work with).
Looking forward to new measurements by Amir, and further updates from Kali.
Thanks!

 

[SDX-LV]

Apologies for the delay. We wanted to understand what happened, We were able to get the loudspeaker you reviewed back from our dealer since there are not many returns, but we just received it this week. It was immediately evident that the loudspeaker is indeed damaged. Perhaps you missed it, but the surround is pulled away from the frame as can be seen in the picture you took (attached, circled).
...

Dear Mr. Sprinkle,

With all of your expertise in making some of the best speakers in the world, could you please advise how to practically set up IN-8 speakers in a complex listening space so that we do not mess it all up? Generally there are statements such as "great speakers should not be equalized above transition frequency" and "Room correction/calibration software often causes more harm than it helps", but:

How would you integrate the Kali speakers for LCR duties in a surround setup together with 2-4 subwoofers inside a flawed living-room? (speakers close to walls, one sidewall missing, no treatments, etc.)

• Would you recommend entrusting everything to some Audissey, Dirac, ARC or other automatic calibration wizzard?
• Would you just do some manual level matching + use the built-in Boundary EQ?
• Would you use some advanced parametric equalization hardware?

For 2-channel listening with 1 sub there are more options, but it is hard to understand how to set-up 5+ speakers and multiple subs for watching Blu-ray or playing on XBox

Thank you for any tips!

 

[thewas]

In this video Charles Sprinkle recommmends and shows how to room calibrate only in the bass region

 

[napilopez]

Apologies for the delay. We wanted to understand what happened, We were able to get the loudspeaker you reviewed back from our dealer since there are not many returns, but we just received it this week. It was immediately evident that the loudspeaker is indeed damaged. Perhaps you missed it, but the surround is pulled away from the frame as can be seen in the picture you took (attached, circled).

View attachment 48196


From another angle, this is what it looks like.
View attachment 48197


Even with the damage, I was not able to reproduce your measurements unless the speaker was pushed all the way into limit. I'm only using a portable rig on ground plane, so we are having this sample and another from inventory sent to an independent lab for full measurement set. We will publish their results.

It is hard for me to understand how a clearly defective loudspeaker would somehow slip through 100% end of line testing including visual inspection rub/buzz, frequency response, and distortion test (3 separate stations). At the same time, I never would have anticipated that the surround could come loose during shipping / handling, as it is captured between the rear mounted frame and the baffle. I will be initiating 8 discipline problem solving action in order to fully understand how this could have happened. Rest assured we will diligently work to make sure this odd defect doesn't happen again.

Best regards,
Charles

Thank you for the thorough response and adjustments. Looking forward to seeing the future measurements.

 

[LeftCoastTim]

In this video Charles Sprinkle recommmends and shows how to room calibrate only in the bass region

I don't understand why they are using pink noise (which is not flat), and they get a flat looking frequency response, and then target EQ to a flat in-room frequency response.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

They have REW in the RTA mode, which will display pink noise as a "flat" response. (Equal energy per octave.)
If they put REW in the Spectrum mode white noise would display as a "flat" response.

Dave.

 

[amirm]

So I finally braved the cold garage and measured my purchased sample of Kali IN-8. Here are the results in a more extensive manner per our later tests.

Let's get the most important message out:

Yup. The problem with anemic bass is gone. This makes sense as Charles reported that the tested sample had a bad woofer. Likely that lowered its output capability. Sans the cancellation around 8 to 10 kHz, this is a very smooth response. It shows up just as well in predicted in-room response:

I ran a few tests at different output level to see if there is any bass compression and there was none:

Tested level was third from the top. At the highest level, the IN-8 was quite unhappy (audibly) in attempting to reproduce the very low frequencies but even then, the in-band response was not impacted.

Unfortunately I did not run the levels in the ascending order so the distortion graphs are for lowest output level. Here they are in percentages:

Advanced Measurements

Eye-candy Speaker Measurements
I drilled down into the soundfield (all up wave front from the speaker) at crossover frequencies of the woofer to midrange and midrange to tweeter:

The microphone is at the tweeter level so naturally the loudest sound is coming from the woofer so below the "nref" axis. We have one unified speaker instead of two distinct ones playing their own tunes which is what we want to see.

Same story repeats in the transition between the midrange and tweeter:

So boring in a good way.

Measurement Accuracy
Here is the polar plot for the highest measured frequency of 20 kHz:

This produces the most elongated measurement allowing us to see if it peaks at 0 degree. And it essentially does. I am not taking a protractor and poking a hole in the tweeter to align it with the microphone. So this is as good as it gets.

Conclusion
Seems like the mystery is resolved. The Kali IN-8 is indeed a well-designed speaker when it is not broken. I am relieved I did not like the sound of the broken one.

Now someone needs to buy this speaker from me so that I can use the money to eat lunch tomorrow. No, it is not at a discount. It is the only Kali IN-8 with $100,000 measurement data!

I will link the review post to this one.

 

[amirm]

Here is the spin data.

 

[Charles Sprinkle]

I don't understand why they are using pink noise (which is not flat), and they get a flat looking frequency response, and then target EQ to a flat in-room frequency response.

Dear Mr. Sprinkle,

With all of your expertise in making some of the best speakers in the world, could you please advise how to practically set up IN-8 speakers in a complex listening space so that we do not mess it all up? Generally there are statements such as "great speakers should not be equalized above transition frequency" and "Room correction/calibration software often causes more harm than it helps", but:

How would you integrate the Kali speakers for LCR duties in a surround setup together with 2-4 subwoofers inside a flawed living-room? (speakers close to walls, one sidewall missing, no treatments, etc.)

• Would you recommend entrusting everything to some Audissey, Dirac, ARC or other automatic calibration wizzard?
• Would you just do some manual level matching + use the built-in Boundary EQ?
• Would you use some advanced parametric equalization hardware?

For 2-channel listening with 1 sub there are more options, but it is hard to understand how to set-up 5+ speakers and multiple subs for watching Blu-ray or playing on XBox

Thank you for any tips!

Maybe this should have a different thread but this is a very important topic. This may be TMI, but here goes...

EQ is often regarded as a cure-all for room response issues. Simply stated, EQ applied to a bad setup is like putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig. The room calibration measurement and EQ shown in the video should happen only after major room issues have been dealt with and the speakers are in a good spot in the room.

Assuming that you have an existing room and you don't get to choose dimensions, you should still check for issues such as loose wallboard, mechanical resonances, etc. For resolution of modal issues, I don't recommend broad-band bass traps, as they don't fix the problems, they just attenuate bass. (Then you are filling in holes with EQ as opposed to cutting peaks. This directly reduces your headroom.) You mention that this is a complex space, so I am visualizing non-parallel walls. This would make calculation of modal frequencies more difficult, so you could use time-domain measurements to understand your room. Waterfall plots can be used with static microphone measurements to visualize problem frequencies. These frequencies should be noted as a guide for modal remediation and speaker placement. You would also want to measure in different locations to determine which dimensions belong to which modes. (I could go on about some tricks for this detective work, but for the sake of brevity, I will defer to other sources on the topic) There are some good starting points for rectangular rooms, but again, I'm going to assume you are in an odd space.. The moving microphone method can be used to screen potential loudspeaker placements and select the one with the least problems. If you are left with a speaker position with one or more cancellations, consider using a tuned bass trap to attenuate that frequency at a boundary where the resonance is most intense. by attenuating the mode, you will actually fill in the null.

Once the room issues are dealt with and the loudspeakers are in the right place, then you can use EQ to pull down resonant peaks and finish optimization. The video shows a rapid and repeatable method for the required spatial average measurements. I have data to show that this method is comparable to an average of 32 static microphone positions in the same volume.

Amir also has a good article on optimization at https://www.jblsynthesis.com/about/acoustics.html

 

[Blumlein 88]

So I finally braved the cold garage and measured my purchased sample of Kali IN-8. Here are the results in a more extensive manner per our later tests.

Let's get the most important message out:
View attachment 48334

Yup. The problem with anemic bass is gone. This makes sense as Charles reported that the tested sample had a bad woofer. Likely that lowered its output capability. Sans the cancellation around 8 to 10 kHz, this is a very smooth response. It shows up just as well in predicted in-room response:

View attachment 48335

I ran a few tests at different output level to see if there is any bass compression and there was none:

View attachment 48336

Tested level was third from the top. At the highest level, the IN-8 was quite unhappy (audibly) in attempting to reproduce the very low frequencies but even then, the in-band response was not impacted.

Unfortunately I did not run the levels in the ascending order so the distortion graphs are for lowest output level. Here they are in percentages:

View attachment 48338

Advanced Measurements
View attachment 48340

View attachment 48339

View attachment 48341

View attachment 48342

View attachment 48343

Eye-candy Speaker Measurements
I drilled down into the soundfield (all up wave front from the speaker) at crossover frequencies of the woofer to midrange and midrange to tweeter:

View attachment 48344

The microphone is at the tweeter level so naturally the loudest sound is coming from the woofer so below the "nref" axis. We have one unified speaker instead of two distinct ones playing their own tunes which is what we want to see.

Same story repeats in the transition between the midrange and tweeter:

View attachment 48345

So boring in a good way.

Measurement Accuracy
Here is the polar plot for the highest measured frequency of 20 kHz:

View attachment 48346

This produces the most elongated measurement allowing us to see if it peaks at 0 degree. And it essentially does. I am not taking a protractor and poking a hole in the tweeter to align it with the microphone. So this is as good as it gets.

Conclusion
Seems like the mystery is resolved. The Kali IN-8 is indeed a well-designed speaker when it is not broken. I am relieved I did not like the sound of the broken one.

Now someone needs to buy this speaker from me so that I can use the money to eat lunch tomorrow. No, it is not at a discount. It is the only Kali IN-8 with $100,000 measurement data!

I will link the review post to this one.

So bravo on the retest, and on Kali (Mr. Sprinkle). They make a fine speaker it seems.

 

[AudioJester]

I might have missed it, but is there an explanation for the cancellation between 8-10kHz?

 

[JohnYang1997]

What's wrong with the tweeter? Why the huge dip?

 

[amirm]

What's wrong with the tweeter? Why the huge dip?

See:

At 10k, the on axis response shows a diffraction from the baffle edge of the midrange for the IN-8.

 

[maxxevv]

@amirm , think you should duplicate the updated test data for sample 2 to the first page / post as well.

It will make for much easier referencing from first time viewers of this review .

 

[Charles Sprinkle]

Dear Mr. Sprinkle,

With all of your expertise in making some of the best speakers in the world, could you please advise how to practically set up IN-8 speakers in a complex listening space so that we do not mess it all up? Generally there are statements such as "great speakers should not be equalized above transition frequency" and "Room correction/calibration software often causes more harm than it helps", but:

How would you integrate the Kali speakers for LCR duties in a surround setup together with 2-4 subwoofers inside a flawed living-room? (speakers close to walls, one sidewall missing, no treatments, etc.)

• Would you recommend entrusting everything to some Audissey, Dirac, ARC or other automatic calibration wizzard?
• Would you just do some manual level matching + use the built-in Boundary EQ?
• Would you use some advanced parametric equalization hardware?

For 2-channel listening with 1 sub there are more options, but it is hard to understand how to set-up 5+ speakers and multiple subs for watching Blu-ray or playing on XBox

Thank you for any tips!

Reading through my previous reply, I realize I didn't fully address your questions. Sorry.

• Regarding trusting some automated system, my answer would be not unless the room issues are addressed and the speakers are in the right place. Even then, automated systems sometimes get a bad result. I prefer to measure and correct myself.
• If you are doing corrective equalization, you would not need to use the boundary compensation, as this would be corrected by measurement and EQ. (The measurement of the loudspeaker in the room includes the boundary.)
• I have used Mini DSP with the Kali speakers with good results. If you want more dynamic range, it gets more expensive.

Setting up 5 speakers is a bit more tricky. I recommend trying a few different setups to see which one is more uniform and / or requires less EQ. You would have to measure the listening area with each speaker in each configuration.

 

[bobbooo]

@amirm , think you should duplicate the updated test data for sample 2 to the first page / post as well.

It will make for much easier referencing from first time viewers of this review .

Or even a whole new thread, which has been done for most updated measurements previously.

 

[amirm]

@amirm , think you should duplicate the updated test data for sample 2 to the first page / post as well.

It will make for much easier referencing from first time viewers of this review .

I put a link and note there to new measurements already.