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JTR Subs for HiFi and Music Primarily

HooStat

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#21
If you're going to be using them exclusively for music, Rythmik, PSA, or Funk Audio might be a little bit better. JTR subs are designed for ridiculous amounts of output, perhaps slightly at the expense of precision.
What do you mean by "precision"? Most issues with subs have to do with placement and room integration.
 

FrantzM

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#22
What do you mean by "precision"? Most issues with subs have to do with placement and room integration.
+1
Was about to ask that very question!
For the OP, care to let us know how big is your room?

I am finishing my cave and use two ultra-cheap (Dayton Audio SUB-1500 around $200 each) ported subwoofers. Integration is ongoing. I may post measurements soon. Right now, the quality and amount of bass I am getting in that small room (12 square m) is surprising.
 

Sancus

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#23
"Precision" just isn't a term that has any meaning with respect to subs. The perception of "boomy" or "imprecise" bass is typically caused by uncontrolled room modes, which won't be a problem with multiple subs and Dirac Bass Control.

Group delay is how long the signal envelope is delayed, and the amount of it that is audible varies, but in any case JTR subs are all below 1 cycle of group delay at all audible frequencies. The sealed subs in particular have group delay about as low as it gets, the RS1 has less delay than a Rythmik F18. Not that either of these subs would be audibly "delayed" in any way at all. Practically speaking, that is only an issue with small ported subs that have a port tuning well into audible frequencies, or subs spending a lot of time on DSP. Not the case here.
 
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#24
What do you mean by "precision"? Most issues with subs have to do with placement and room integration.
For the most part, yes. That's why I said it wouldn't make a huge difference. I am just saying that if I were in OP's situation looking for the best subwoofers to buy purely for music, two JTR RS2's wouldn't be at the top of my list.

Bass quality has mostly to do with placement and room, but as for the subwoofer itself it seems to have to do with motor force, inductance, moving mass, and possibly group delay.

Here is an anecdotal report that Rythmik F18's are better for music according to someone who owned both them and JTR RS1's:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/ry...ocused-multi-use-system.3146278/post-59675474

A pair of RS2's costs $7400+shipping. Four F18's cost $6400. I would personally go with the four Rythmik's every time. Four subwoofers will always beat two.
 

richard12511

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#25
If you're going to be using them exclusively for music, Rythmik, PSA, or Funk Audio might be a little bit better. JTR subs are designed for ridiculous amounts of output, perhaps slightly at the expense of precision. All will give you massive amounts of headroom. There's really no way to get clean, well-integrated bass with any of these subwoofers without leaving massive amounts of headroom unless you're trying to blow out your hearing.
Nah. I've got both Rythmik and JTR. They sound exactly the same if you gimp the JTRs with EQ. The JTRs just have more extension and power. Equally precise, equally fast, equally inaudible distortion, and equally inaudible group delay. Without equalization, though, the RS2 is better than the FV25 for both music and movies(well, I don't really watch movies).

Now, if it's a choice of 4 Rythmiks vs 2 JTRs, that's different. 4 subs will *almost always be smoother than 2. As far as performance/price though, JTR and Rythmik are exactly the same. JTR's entry level stuff just kinda picks up where Rythmik end game stuff stops.
 
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richard12511

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#26
There's no doubt that they would be great for music. All I am saying is that if you are going to be using them exclusively for music, there may be better options. For example, four smaller subs will be better than two JTR's. The Rythmik F18 is very, very good for music.
F18 is great for music, but not as great for music as a JTR though.

I agree with you though on your point of 2 vs 4. If you can afford and fit 4 cheaper subs vs 2 more expensive subs, 4 cheaper subs will be better(almost always).
 

richard12511

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#27
That's what I was worried about, but someone else said here they'd be great for music, and that they have a pair of them and they're fantastic as HiFi subs.
Don't be worried about it. I can tell you that the whole "speed", "precsion" or "good for music" thing is a myth when it comes to subwoofers in this class. They all sound exactly the same once you account for output and extension differences.
 

richard12511

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#28
A pair of RS2's costs $7400+shipping. Four F18's cost $6400. I would personally go with the four Rythmik's every time. Four subwoofers will always beat two.
For the most part, yes. That's why I said it wouldn't make a huge difference. I am just saying that if I were in OP's situation looking for the best subwoofers to buy purely for music, two JTR RS2's wouldn't be at the top of my list.

Bass quality has mostly to do with placement and room, but as for the subwoofer itself it seems to have to do with motor force, inductance, moving mass, and possibly group delay.

Here is an anecdotal report that Rythmik F18's are better for music according to someone who owned both them and JTR RS1's:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/ry...ocused-multi-use-system.3146278/post-59675474

A pair of RS2's costs $7400+shipping. Four F18's cost $6400. I would personally go with the four Rythmik's every time. Four subwoofers will always beat two.
They didn't equalize the response/position and do the comparison blind, like I've done. You have to do those things, since otherwise, it's just a battle of position(you're hearing the room), and not the subs.

@danielmiessler , @nerdoldnerdith does bring up a good point, though. That is, do you have 4 different locations around the room where you can place subs? Cap 4000 is definitely better than the F18(or even 2 F18s stacked) for music, but 2 F18s can be spread out better over the room to excite more room modes and give you a better (smoother) response. The smoother the response is, the better your music is going to sound (ime). You're trying to excite as many room modes as you can, so more bass sources = more better. Same thing goes for 4 vs 2 imo, but the comparison is gonna be closer, as you do limit your extension and distortion with the ported Rythmiks. It depends on how smooth you can get with just 2 Cap 4000s. 4 Caps would be better than 8 F18 imo, as smoothness is already maximized, and now you're just going for extension.
 
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#29
I think the Rythmik vs JTR discussion might be better framed as how much output do you need? The JTR have more output (I'm not convinced on that much more extension, given the tuning frequencies and data from data-bass) but is that really necessary in 90% of listening spaces? Unless your music listening involves strong content below 25Hz at levels exceeding 105-110 dB, even the upper levels of Rythmik are more than you need (assuming you don't have a 6,000 cubic foot listening room).

The JTR subs cost quite a lot more than Rythmik and are not as nicely finished -- an F18, even without the gloss black, is more aesthetically pleasing in a multi-use listening room than any JTR sub.

In other words, I'm not slighting the performance of JTR at all. They are an amazing product, and priced as such. Even though some people do use them in multi-use rooms, I personally want something with a better appearance to go with the performance. I doubt I'm alone in that. So, for many people, I don't get the cost and aesthetic compromises being made when a less expensive, nicer looking product with sufficient output is available.

EDIT: a single F18 can generate 110 dB free-field above 30Hz...again, for primarily music listening, how much more does a 95th percentile person need?
 

richard12511

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#30
2. As far as performance/price though, JTR and Rythmik are exactly the same. JTR's entry level stuff just kinda picks up where Rythmik end game stuff stops.
Actually, I kinda forgot that JTR recently increased their prices by $400 across the board. I did a value comparison a few years back and found that price/performance was roughly the same(with JTR just picking up where Rythmik leaves off), but the recent price increase might swing it back in favor of Rythmik.

Also, I personally don't believe that sealed subs are better for music than ported subs. I've seen people far more knowledgeable than myself who disagree, but I guess their arguments have just never convinced me. I believe Toole did some blind tests between sealed and ported and found that no one could tell them apart. I went with RS2s over the Cap4000s based mostly on a black friday sale a few years ago that I couldn't pass up. 50% (30% BF + 10% multiple +10% return customer)?, or maybe it was 40%?
 

richard12511

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#31
I'm not convinced on that much more extension, given the tuning frequencies and data from data-bass)
The big JTRs have lower port tuning which definitely give you better extension. For example, you'd have to buy 5-6 spread FV18s($9,300 - $11,200) or 3-4 ($5,600-$7,476) stacked FV18s, just to get the same 10Hz extension as 1 Captivator 4000ULF($4,200). That's with counting +3 for spread and +6 for stacked(is that the correct math? doesn't seem right). FV18 = 94dB @10Hz vs Cap4000 = 108dB @10Hz.

*Edit: Looked it up cause I knew it sounded wrong. You don't get +3/+6(separate/colocated) for each sub you add, it's per doubling. So assuming we're stacking, it would take 4 FV18s to get to 106dB?
 
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FrantzM

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#32
Hi

Things do not go as linearly as we wish in the low bass. Volume, material and construction of the room has a large, even predominant impact on the final performance at the listening positions.
 

sweetchaos

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#33
I went with RS2s over the Cap4000s based mostly on a black friday sale a few years ago that I couldn't pass up. 50% (30% BF + 10% multiple +10% return customer)?, or maybe it was 40%?
That's an insane deal.
Do you know if JTR Speakers usually have a Black Friday discount? I haven't seen them on sale yet.
If you think it's consistent, I'll add a note to my subwoofer comparison spreadsheet, so people will know about these discounts.
 
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#34
FWIW, four or even two 18" subs is overkill for music unless you have giant room. The Genelec 8351B's can only hit 116dB. You could easily get 116dB in room from four good 12" subwoofers like the Rythmik F12G and still have plenty in the tank. Take the money you save and buy more speakers.
 

Sancus

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#35
FWIW, four or even two 18" subs is overkill for music unless you have giant room. The Genelec 8351B's can only hit 116dB. You could easily get 116dB in room from four good 12" subwoofers like the Rythmik F12G and still have plenty in the tank. Take the money you save and buy more speakers.
For music yes for sure, for HT LFE peak reference is 115dB. Based on the OP the system is used for both. FWIW, I still agree that 4x RS2s is probably overkill even for HT... in audible frequencies anyways, so it depends how much infrasound feeling you're after.
 

sweetchaos

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#36
I love that there's no shortage of well-measured subwoofers, so you're only limited by your budget, not lack of choice.

Have more money? Get 2nd sub, then 3rd, then 4th. Then, you're in bass heaven. :D
 

Chrispy

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#37
That's what I was worried about, but someone else said here they'd be great for music, and that they have a pair of them and they're fantastic as HiFi subs.
What is a "hi-fi" sub particularly? What is not hi-fi about the JTR products?

JTR also has upgrade finishes available if you want something prettier than basic black.
 
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#38
The big JTRs have lower port tuning which definitely give you better extension. For example, you'd have to buy 5-6 spread FV18s($9,300 - $11,200) or 3-4 ($5,600-$7,476) stacked FV18s, just to get the same 10Hz extension as 1 Captivator 4000ULF($4,200). That's with counting +3 for spread and +6 for stacked(is that the correct math? doesn't seem right). FV18 = 94dB @10Hz vs Cap4000 = 108dB @10Hz.

*Edit: Looked it up cause I knew it sounded wrong. You don't get +3/+6(separate/colocated) for each sub you add, it's per doubling. So assuming we're stacking, it would take 4 FV18s to get to 106dB?
That's output, not extension. :) Also, once you are below 16Hz, you aren't getting any intentional signal in 99.9999% of media. (for disclosure, I have an FV18 ran in 12Hz mode.)

If stacked, you will get closer to +6dB for doubling. If spread, it would completely depend on optimization; best case of between +3 to +6dB of doubling. So yes, it would take multiple FV18s to hit the same output as a Cap4000. But my point is how many people need or would even benefit from that? Especially outside of a dedicated theater room? Need I point out that a Cap4000 is almost the size of two FV18s and weighs 100lbs more?

I'm not saying there are no applications for such a product, of course there are. But when you are talking about people in a non-dedicated theater room mostly looking for music performance, it seems like pointless expense and dealing with a huge ugly box.

EDIT: actually, I'm getting the OP mixed up with another similar post, so I'll shut up with my OT comments. To the OP, two RS2's would perform awesomely if you need that much output and can live with the aesthetics (or can afford to pay Jeff for a custom finish).
 
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#39
Slightly off topic but regarding multiple subwoofers: Does a dual opposed subwoofer give the same benefit as having two subwoofers at different places in the room ? I am limited in my ability to get two large ugly boxes in my family room.
 

Sancus

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#40
That's output, not extension. :) Also, once you are below 16Hz, you aren't getting any intentional signal in 99.9999% of media. (for disclosure, I have an FV18 ran in 12Hz mode.)
Well, depends how you define all media. Signal below 16hz is pretty common on real surround tracks in movies. Other than that, I agree, very uncommon. But nevertheless, some people swear by infrasonics and feel that a home theatre is not complete without high-SPL infrasonics you can feel in your chest. There is actually a subset of HT enthusiasts who strongly dislike when sound engineers arbitrarily filter infrasonics out of movies and a whole database of EQ designed to fix that.

I don't know if OP cares about that stuff, but I tend not to tell people what SPLs or frequencies they need -- anyone with Genelecs and a Storm processor is more than capable of deciding that for themselves.
 

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