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JTR Subs for HiFi and Music Primarily

Chrispy

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#41
Slightly off topic but regarding multiple subwoofers: Does a dual opposed subwoofer give the same benefit as having two subwoofers at different places in the room ? I am limited in my ability to get two large ugly boxes in my family room.
A single sub location is at a disadvantage over duals for smoothing room modes. Dual opposed is still just a single sub....
 
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#42
RS2 would be overkill, unless you want boosted bass especially in <20hz region.

Genelec's recommendation is 15" ported subwoofer for 8351B.
 
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richard12511

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#43
That's an insane deal.
Do you know if JTR Speakers usually have a Black Friday discount? I haven't seen them on sale yet.
If you think it's consistent, I'll add a note to my subwoofer comparison spreadsheet, so people will know about these discounts.
I don’t know, but I also don’t watch it any more the 10 + 10 part is all the time for those conditions.

Edit*: Honestly I would really doubt it right now, as from what I'm hearing in the user group, they're backed up like 6 months or so. Maybe a good reason to go with someone else if you want subs soon.
 
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richard12511

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#44
FWIW, four or even two 18" subs is overkill for music unless you have giant room. The Genelec 8351B's can only hit 116dB. You could easily get 116dB in room from four good 12" subwoofers like the Rythmik F12G and still have plenty in the tank. Take the money you save and buy more speakers.
I think is 4 still useful to smooth out the response, but yeah part of the reason I moved 2 of mine to the garage is that even with just 2 RS2s, the 8351b became the limiting factor. When I was still running the JTR 212 mains though, I needed all 4 subs(and really even more) as the sub 15Hz to sub 10Hz range was the system limiting factor. My room is open to the whole house, though. I was actually thinking about moving to 4 Captivator 4000s, since the 4 RS2s just couldn't quite keep up ;).
 

richard12511

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#46
That's output, not extension. :) Also, once you are below 16Hz, you aren't getting any intentional signal in 99.9999% of media. (for disclosure, I have an FV18 ran in 12Hz mode.)

If stacked, you will get closer to +6dB for doubling. If spread, it would completely depend on optimization; best case of between +3 to +6dB of doubling. So yes, it would take multiple FV18s to hit the same output as a Cap4000. But my point is how many people need or would even benefit from that? Especially outside of a dedicated theater room? Need I point out that a Cap4000 is almost the size of two FV18s and weighs 100lbs more?

I'm not saying there are no applications for such a product, of course there are. But when you are talking about people in a non-dedicated theater room mostly looking for music performance, it seems like pointless expense and dealing with a huge ugly box.

EDIT: actually, I'm getting the OP mixed up with another similar post, so I'll shut up with my OT comments. To the OP, two RS2's would perform awesomely if you need that much output and can live with the aesthetics (or can afford to pay Jeff for a custom finish).
I tend to think of extension as "what's the lowest frequency you can play at reference level?" :p.

Honestly, the amount of content with sub 20Hz content is pretty rare, though it does exist. Multiple FV18s will get you sub 20 though (and probably low teens) in a fairly large room at reference level, and that covers 99.9% of music.

Sub 10Hz content is super rare, and usually it's music that's just there to test the bass, and not actually music I enjoy. I only know 1 song with sub 10Hz content that I actually enjoy. Flipped a breaker a couple times on that one :facepalm:.

I agree it really doesn't make sense in most rooms for music. I could probably do with 2 15" subs tbh and be just as happy. I'm weird, though. Part of it was I had heard 8 18" woofers before as a reference, and I wanted to recreate that, but it's really not even close to necessary.
 
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richard12511

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#47
RS2 would be overkill, unless you want boosted bass especially in <20hz region.

Genelec's recommendation is 15" ported subwoofer for 8351B.
That would be fine if there 15" sub wasn't $6,000 here(and still only 800watts :facepalm:). I got dual 7370s to go with my mains, and they were inadequate for my main room.
 
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#48
That would be fine if there 15" sub wasn't $6,000 here(and still only 800watts :facepalm:). I got dual 7370s to go with my mains, and they were inadequate for my main room.
I meant it more like any good 15" ported sub with 20hz tune will match the output capabilities of 8351B for movies.
 
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#49
Why would the bass be boosted unless you set it up that way?
It's already setup that way. JTR home theater subs extend deeper than the subs used to master the movie audio tracks. It's not accurate but it is fun. The deeper extension reduces output capabilities, so you'll need bigger sub to compensate. If you like the sound of Christopher Nolan movies you'll appreciate it for sure.
 

Chrispy

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#50
It's already setup that way. JTR home theater subs extend deeper than the subs used to master the movie audio tracks. It's not accurate but it is fun. The deeper extension reduces output capabilities, so you'll need bigger sub to compensate.
So you're talking about your own setup? The analogy with how a movie is made with what subs and accuracy and the changing of capabilities all make little sense....do you know how to integrate subs well?
 

richard12511

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#51
I meant it more like any good 15" ported sub with 20hz tune will match the output capabilities of 8351B for movies.
Indeed, and I agree(kinda mentioned that in my earlier post). Also probably depends on how much bass boost you use. I use the pretty standard Harman 10dB slope, but I know some of the other JTR guys run another 6-8dB hot. I've tried it, and I just don't think it sounds good for music. I like the more neutral presentation.
 
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#52
So you're talking about your own setup? The analogy with how a movie is made with what subs and accuracy and the changing of capabilities all make little sense....do you know how to integrate subs well?
It's not an analogy. The mastering engineer is adjusting the sound based on what they hear with a 20hz tune subwoofer. If the mix has sub 20hz content and you play it back on a 10hz tune subwoofer system, the sound produced in 10-20hz region will be boosted above what is intended. Does that make sense?
 

Chrispy

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#53
It's not an analogy. The mastering engineer is adjusting the sound based on what they hear with a 20hz tune subwoofer. If the mix has sub 20hz content and you play it back on a 10hz tune subwoofer system, the sound produced in 10-20hz region will be boosted above what is intended. Does that make sense?
No. What is a 20hz "tune" subwoofer?
 
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danielmiessler

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Thread Starter #55
To the OP, two RS2's would perform awesomely if you need that much output and can live with the aesthetics (or can afford to pay Jeff for a custom finish).
I'm currently thinking of two RS1's. I rarely enjoy music that loud on speakers (only in headphones and at EDC :).

And I'm going to be doing a Genelec 8351B-based active monitor HiFi system, so I am more looking for clarity and range than crazy SPL.

This is what I'm thinking. I'm hoping it will come close to a decently-high-end passive system? (I was originally thinking a D'Agostino Progression Integrated amp and Focal No. 2s)
  • 2 x 8351B's for Left/Right Highs
  • 2 x W371A's for Left/Right Mids
  • 2 x JTR RS1s for Left/Right Bass
And then all that leveled and smoothed out with a Storm Audio MKII Processor using DIRAC.

Screen Shot 2021-04-12 at 10.38.10 PM.png
 

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#56
Well, depends how you define all media. Signal below 16hz is pretty common on real surround tracks in movies. Other than that, I agree, very uncommon. But nevertheless, some people swear by infrasonics and feel that a home theatre is not complete without high-SPL infrasonics you can feel in your chest. There is actually a subset of HT enthusiasts who strongly dislike when sound engineers arbitrarily filter infrasonics out of movies and a whole database of EQ designed to fix that.

I don't know if OP cares about that stuff, but I tend not to tell people what SPLs or frequencies they need -- anyone with Genelecs and a Storm processor is more than capable of deciding that for themselves.
In case you are mistaking my intentions, I have an FV18 that is flat down to <12Hz in my room. :)

My point is that while some movies contain content below 16Hz, almost none of it is intended...mastering studios do not have bass output that low and in almost all cases don't even know it is there. Real chest pressure occurs higher in frequency anyway. I mean when the bass drum is caving in your chest at a rock concert, that's 50-60Hz.

And I wasn't trying to tell anyone what they need...I was just pointing out that on internet forums, you tend to get a vocal bunch telling the OP they need 30 cubic feet of subs or go home and it just isn't true for 99% of people.
 

richard12511

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#58
I'm currently thinking of two RS1's. I rarely enjoy music that loud on speakers (only in headphones and at EDC :).

And I'm going to be doing a Genelec 8351B-based active monitor HiFi system, so I am more looking for clarity and range than crazy SPL.

This is what I'm thinking. I'm hoping it will come close to a decently-high-end passive system? (I was originally thinking a D'Agostino Progression Integrated amp and Focal No. 2s)
  • 2 x 8351B's for Left/Right Highs
  • 2 x W371A's for Left/Right Mids
  • 2 x JTR RS1s for Left/Right Bass
And then all that leveled and smoothed out with a Storm Audio MKII Processor using DIRAC.

View attachment 123759
Man, that's gonna be an epic music system. Jealous of the W371A, but I'd love to hear how you end up integrating them with the subs, as I'll likely be doing that eventually with the RS2s. If you can, play around with the crossover from w371 and RS1 to see what works best.
 
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#59
I had 4 JTR Captivator S2's that I sold at the end of last year and will be getting 6 RS1's with external amps in the next few weeks. I'm flying to JTR Speakers on Friday to visit Jeff and do a Saturday demo with him using my subs. I also own the StormAudio MK2 and will be using it for the demo. I think the number of different subwoofers I've listened to is up in the 70's including bandpass horn, front loaded horn, tapped horn, passive radiator, ported, and sealed. The JTR Speakers sealed subs are my favorite.

By the way, I also own the red Noesis 210RT's that @richard12511 is using for his avatar. :)
 
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danielmiessler

danielmiessler

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Thread Starter #60
I had 4 JTR Captivator S2's that I sold at the end of last year and will be getting 6 RS1's with external amps in the next few weeks. I'm flying to JTR Speakers on Friday to visit Jeff and do a Saturday demo with him using my subs. I also own the StormAudio MK2 and will be using it for the demo. I think the number of different subwoofers I've listened to is up in the 70's including bandpass horn, front loaded horn, tapped horn, passive radiator, ported, and sealed. The JTR Speakers sealed subs are my favorite.

By the way, I also own the red Noesis 210RT's that @richard12511 is using for his avatar. :)
Wow, this is like the best audio community ever. Such deep knowledge and experience!
 
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