JBL HDI-3600 Speaker Review

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I don’t doubt their output capability, but there’s no reason to think they’re more capable than good subwoofers. The other problem with full range towers is limited flexibility in placement. Unless you have measurements to show, there’s not really anything to talk about. Any number of things could be going on, including poorly placed subwoofers and crossover integration.

Towers crossed at 60, 70 or 80 will do very well on midbass. Some audiophiles desire bookshelf for pinpoint accuracy. Most never use subs. I refer to good towers. If good towers were nothing to talk about they would be extinct. I despise earth shattering base. I turned off my sub 2 years ago. Need to try quality sealed sub.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Towers crossed at 60, 70 or 80 will do very well on midbass. Some audiophiles desire bookshelf for pinpoint accuracy. Most never use subs. I refer to good towers. If good towers were nothing to talk about they would be extinct. I despise earth shattering base. I turned off my sub 2 years ago. Need to try quality sealed sub.

Bookshelves with properly integrated subs give "earth shattering bass" and pinpoint accuracy, but I see no reason good towers can't give "pinpoint accuracy." I believe Amir showed more problems with the tweeter crossover in the HDI-3600 vs. the HDI-1600, but it's probably nothing to worry about. They just have the disadvantage of costing more when it makes more physical sense to put that money into subwoofers if you have any kind of normal-sized room. You can always do both, of course.

I pointed out a reason that a vertical array of woofers might have an accidental advantage if you have no measurement ability. I suspect "most audiophiles" are relying purely on subjective experience and myths rather than measurements or anything approaching technical knowledge.

Edit: Also, there's nothing intrinsically better about a sealed sub. Have you ever heard a sealed pipe organ? You have to get a measurement mic and learn to use REW if you want to have any idea what the room is doing.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Bookshelves with properly integrated subs give "earth shattering bass" and pinpoint accuracy, but I see no reason good towers can't give "pinpoint accuracy." I believe Amir showed more problems with the tweeter crossover in the HDI-3600 vs. the HDI-1600, but it's probably nothing to worry about. They just have the disadvantage of costing more when it makes more physical sense to put that money into subwoofers if you have any kind of normal-sized room. You can always do both, of course.

I pointed out a reason that a vertical array of woofers might have an accidental advantage if you have no measurement ability. I suspect "most audiophiles" are relying purely on subjective experience and myths rather than measurements or anything approaching technical knowledge.

Edit: Also, there's nothing intrinsically better about a sealed sub. Have you ever heard a sealed pipe organ? You have to get a measurement mic and learn to use REW if you want to have any idea what the room is doing.

You are correct. I just don't think pipe organ analogy is appropriate. Have you ever heard an unsealed ex-wife? But I need to use REW. I never have tried. Need to research.

 

[Sal1950]

I just don't think pipe organ analogy is appropriate. Have you ever heard an unsealed ex-wife?

Yea 2, that's why they're X wifes. LOL

 

[Theriverlethe]

You are correct. I just don't think pipe organ analogy is appropriate. Have you ever heard an unsealed ex-wife? But I need to use REW. I never have tried. Need to research.

We're talking about similar "bass extension," but obviously not "slam" with a pipe organ. I think electric bass amps typically use 8-10" drivers, but they need to play up to 400Hz fundamentals, probably with headroom for harmonics. Subjectively, if I set my HDI-1600's to "large" with no subwoofer, kick drums lose their physical impact and sound more like a low whoosh.

You can get a serialized measurement mic with a calibration file for less than $100 from miniDSP. Strongly recommended. Just learn to use graph smoothing and don't panic over every squiggle. Most of it you can't actually hear.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

We're talking about similar "bass extension," but obviously not "slam" with a pipe organ. I think electric bass amps typically use 8-10" drivers, but they need to play up to 400Hz fundamentals, probably with headroom for harmonics. Subjectively, if I set my HDI-1600's to "large" with no subwoofer, kick drums lose their physical impact and sound more like a low whoosh.

You can get a serialized measurement mic with a calibration file for less than $100 from miniDSP. Strongly recommended. Just learn to use graph smoothing and don't panic over every squiggle. Most of it you can't actually hear.

I will try. Should I crawl around for sub? Thinking about SVS wireless. I can only dril so many holes in hardwood.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Ha, I’ve never actually done a subwoofer crawl. Does it even work for a broad range of frequencies or is it just finding a particular resonance? If so, is there still value in that?

Are you using a receiver to automagically set delays? If not, be aware that DSP and presumably wireless will add a couple “feet” to the “distance.”

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Ha, I’ve never actually done a subwoofer crawl. Does it even work for a broad range of frequencies or is it just finding a particular resonance? If so, is there still value in that?

Are you using a receiver to automagically set delays? If not, be aware that DSP and presumably wireless will add a couple “feet” to the “distance.”

I use Anthem Room Correction. We use tape measure. Mic measurements are marketing crok.

 

[Theriverlethe]

I use Anthem Room Correction. We use tape measure. Mic measurements are marketing crok.

How do you use ARC without a mic?

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

How do you use ARC without a mic?

Comes with AVR. High quality. Doesn't measure.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Ha, I’ve never actually done a subwoofer crawl. Does it even work for a broad range of frequencies or is it just finding a particular resonance? If so, is there still value in that?

Are you using a receiver to automagically set delays? If not, be aware that DSP and presumably wireless will add a couple “feet” to the “distance.”

Crawl only works for subs. Hassle but worth effort. DSP won't fix low frequency nulls. Anthem doesn't calculate feet.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Comes with AVR. High quality. Doesn't measure.

Last time I used ARC, measurements were definitely a part of the process. Otherwise, it’s just manual delays and EQ. Which is fine. That’s what I’m doing now with a Yamaha receiver.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Crawl only works for subs. Hassle but worth effort. DSP won't fix low frequency nulls. Anthem doesn't calculate feet.

Nothing measures feet with a microphone. They just convert a delay to feet and inches. I just talked to SVS and they claim 6ms of delay for their DSP/amps across generations. You can just add that to your tape measure findings.

Edit: Multiple subwoofers fix nulls.

 

[Sal1950]

Last time I used ARC, measurements were definitely a part of the process. Otherwise, it’s just manual delays and EQ.

You have to manually measure distance and enter it into the program?
Humm, I'm surprised. A properly designed auto program can measure distance and include things like delay due to crossover
errors and such to get the timing integration perfect.

 

[Theriverlethe]

You have to manually measure distance and enter it into the program?
Humm, I'm surprised. A properly designed auto program can measure distance and include things like delay due to crossover
errors and such to get the timing integration perfect.

Hypothetically, you're correct. But I find that increasing the "distance" of the subwoofers manually is yielding a much smoother integration, at least in the frequency domain. I added 7ft to the measured "distance."

 

[Sal1950]

Hypothetically, you're correct. But I find that increasing the "distance" of the subwoofers manually is yielding a much smoother integration, at least in the frequency domain. I added 7ft to the measured "distance."

As measured or only subjectively?
I believe your more adjusting for phase issues here, I would think better addressed otherwise.
YMMV

 

[Theriverlethe]

As measured or only subjectively?
I believe your more adjusting for phase issues here, I would think better addressed otherwise.
YMMV

As measured. What would you suggest?

 

[Sal1950]

As measured. What would you suggest?

I'm not an expert on the subject, I do just question why adding an extra 7 feet induces an improved FR ?
I've got a vague understanding of why but the rest goes way over my head.
If your subs have a variable phase control like my SVS you might try using the correct distance with different phase settings?
As you said "hypothetically" the incorrect distance setting shouldn't be the proper thing to do.
There may be others here more educated on the subject that can address this here.
Or you might reach out to Mitch @mitchco of Accurate Sound for more in-depth answers.

Digital Room Calibration Services, Convolvers, Headphone Filtersets

We help deliver digital room calibration for studio quality sound for any room in your house worldwide. Headphone filtersets and the Hang Loose Convolver.

accuratesound.ca

 

[Theriverlethe]

I'm not an expert on the subject, I do just question why adding an extra 7 feet induces an improved FR ?
I've got a vague understanding of why but the rest goes way over my head.
If your subs have a variable phase control like my SVS you might try using the correct distance with different phase settings?
As you said "hypothetically" the incorrect distance setting shouldn't be the proper thing to do.
There may be others here more educated on the subject that can address this here.
Or you might reach out to Mitch @mitchco of Accurate Sound for more in-depth answers.

Digital Room Calibration Services, Convolvers, Headphone Filtersets

We help deliver digital room calibration for studio quality sound for any room in your house worldwide. Headphone filtersets and the Hang Loose Convolver.

accuratesound.ca

Well, there is no actual "distance" setting, it's just a weird user interface choice. If my mains and subs are all about 6.5 ft. away and the subs have DSP that adds latency, the subwoofer distance needs to be set higher to compensate. SVS claims their latency is 6ms so about 7ft. should be added to the distance, getting us to 13.5ft. YPAO only sets the subwoofer delay to 9.2 ft., which seems obviously wrong. I also have an older PB12 and it wouldn't be surprising if the latency is higher, even though the SVS phone rep claims otherwise.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Nothing measures feet with a microphone. They just convert a delay to feet and inches. I just talked to SVS and they claim 6ms of delay for their DSP/amps across generations. You can just add that to your tape measure findings.

Edit: Multiple subwoofers fix nulls.

I'm just describing Anthem Room Correction. You measure manually.