Ishiwata Toe In (Extreme Toe In), have you tried this?

[tmuikku]

^^ -Matt-, kinda, Griesinger has experimental messure of this kind of stuff called LOC, but it's for real sources and not for phantom image. Phantom image is product of our auditory system, and relatively fragile as an illusion in a way, related to LOC of course assuming same thing needs to happen in auditory system.

You could use your own auditory system to wonder about, and even measure, clarity: put the speakers quite close together, and use quite close listening distance, IOE small stereo triangle. This should allow auditory system lock in to the phantom center in a way, get neural stream separation and clarity and accurate localization happens. The other state is that there is no stream separation, auditory system cannot lock in and the sound remains hazy, or how ever you want to describe it. Stream separation happens when original audio harmonic information is retained well enough, the brain locks in to amplitude peaks that happen harmonics aligning every fundamental, and which for example loud early reflections ruin.

I speculate you can switch between the two perceptions by moving a bit, by changing listening distance. Transition between the two can be quite sudden, repeatable, and you can move at will to utilize your own auditory system as an AB test facility and learn by perveiving what is clarity, good localization, how is your envelopment, how does your room sound, what kind of DI would support what you want to hear, and so on your auditory system affects a lot how you perceive your system (stereo) sound.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I tried this yesterday, and given promising results, I plan on doing some measurements this weekend.

I've tried it in the past, but never found a reason to go with it. But my recently repositioned speakers made it worth trying now. If I had to move the speakers, and not just turn them, I would likely not have bothered. Thanks for this discussion, which got me to look at my room and consider it after many years of not trying it again.

13'x33' room, lots of side wall reflections in the first 13', but few after. Speakers (mainly AV use but music frequently) are 4' off the wall behind them, but only 2' off the side walls, and they throw WIDE (vintage horn mid and tweeter). They are ~8.5'; apart center to center, and were toed slightly in to the arms of a 6' seating area, 12.5' from the speakers. That worked ok, but bass issues existed. Better than the previous positions on those issues, but still not great.

I can't toe them to center of the MLP, since that points one of them directly at my most problematic corner. But going with the method discussed in this thread, I thought I might avoid that issue... enough.

I toed the speakers in to the opposite side of the couch. pointing each where the other one used to be pointed. The change put the crossing point of the speakers in front of the MLP, so that if I sit on the edge and lean forward with both elbows on knees, my head is right at the cross. Mostly I am about 3' behind that point when sitting. Getting the center locked in took some extensive room treatment alterations. Ok, I had to put two pillows on top of chair on one wall, so not really extensive! And not unexpected, as that chair lives in that spot for a very good reason.

I don't trust my ears, now more than usually given some issues I am recovering from. But initial impression is good. Fewer bass issues (in the 80-130 range at a guess), much better instrument location, much more locked down.

Negatives? If I move further and further behind the MLP, it sounds worse and worse in terms of instrument location. Not to the point of overlapping instruments, more like instruments are... moving a few inches left and right as they are being played? I assume this is from late/cross wall reflections. And I know I am not describing it well. It sounds "rougher" more than "veiled" is the best way I can put it.

As I said, my ears are off, plus when I make changes I tend to hear improvements first, but hear "new" problems later on after some time. I'll see how things sound tonight, and then measure and compare to the past position measurements tomorrow. But as of now, I would say if your side walls are an issue, and if you don't care what happens behind your LP, definitely worth a try.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

‰¢Bƒ}ƒ‰ƒ“ƒc‚̃uƒ‰ƒ“ƒhƒAƒ“ƒoƒTƒ_[AKen IshiwataŽ‚ªŒê‚éuModel 7‚©‚瑱‚ƒ}ƒ‰ƒ“ƒc‚Ì“`“v - PHILE WEB

‰¢Bƒ}ƒ‰ƒ“ƒc‚̃uƒ‰ƒ“ƒhƒAƒ“ƒoƒTƒ_[AKen IshiwataŽ‚ªŒê‚éuModel 7‚©‚瑱‚ƒ}ƒ‰ƒ“ƒc‚Ì“`“v

www.phileweb.com

Found this. It is an interview with Ken Ishiwata and the caption for the speaker photo states:


At the venue, there was a large listening booth individually dedicated to Ken Ishiwata's demonstration, and many visitors were crowded each time. The reason why the speakers are extremely toed in is to make as many people as possible experience the sound stage at an event where a large number of listeners gather.

I am sure I have seen this also confirmed in an YouTube interview with KI somewhere, but I cannot find it.

Photos of the great man's own listening room show toe-in.

 

[GXAlan]

Photos of the great man's own listening room show toe-in.

Agreed, but I know when I was diving deep into Ken Ishiwata and watched every YouTube video and read every article, even in foreign languages, I came across a comment that the toe in was for the benefit of multiple listeners not necessarily a single listener. That said, it’s a free tweak to try and may work great for many of us.

Google shows this from AudiophileStyle but I was not able to identify the original article.

 

[Chrispy]

Didn't know it had a brand name....but have tried this with various speakers in various rooms. Mostly I don't find it beneficial.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Agreed, but I know when I was diving deep into Ken Ishiwata and watched every YouTube video and read every article, even in foreign languages, I came across a comment that the toe in was for the benefit of multiple listeners not necessarily a single listener. That said, it’s a free tweak to try and may work great for many of us.

Google shows this from AudiophileStyle but I was not able to identify the original article.

View attachment 348592

It's a shame it seems like he didn't do a listening room tour of his home set up.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I tried this yesterday, and given promising results, I plan on doing some measurements this weekend.

Ok, here we go. First, some context.

Speakers are 1984 Heresies on stands and level. We've had them for 20+ years (gift to us), recapped and redrivered and mid horn mod in the last 2 years, but still. No sub in any of these measures for the current placement.

In order to compare to the more conventional set up measure I have saved, I am using white noise at 65db into RTA. I usually start with that (75db when windows can be opened) because I have normal room modes, but also a 30hz drum of a floor. I need to load that floor up because as it activates it affects things in a pretty dramatic way. There is a spike, but not a constant spike at the level shown at 30, a truck driving past or cat jumping off a chair can spike that 10-15db when the floor is loaded.

Additionally, using white noise I can just do some basic EQ on the fly by using RTA and peak captures. Fast to do. I have a 9 band eq on my phone and for when I am using a sub DSP on an SVS sb100 pro. Then I come back the next day and work more in detail. These are what I consider "exploratory" measures. 200hz and below.

All graphs are 1/6 smoothing, because that shows what I want to show most clearly.

Before I compare, here's 65 db white noise, and a sweep at the same system volume, Ishi set up. You will note a lot of room gain, but pay particular attention to 60hz.

This is just at the point where the floor starts to load up. My main goal with EQ is to keep that 60 down as long as possible as volume increases. Which given a room null at 60, takes some consideration.

Ok, here's the conventional corner set up (which I have had for a whopping 2 weeks,) and the Ishi set up. Conventional (red) has EQ at 125 and 250 pulled down 2db, Ishi has 63 and 125 pulled down 2db.

So, better. I hate the 90-110 bump which I have battled for a long time. Better at 65db at least, at 70 others issues will happen for sure. But as of now, 65 is my median volume.

Is the Ishi better in all ways? No. Way more locked down, less (unmeasured so far) distortion. But both of these set ups spike 300hz (not uncommon) but the Ishi spikes 600 as well. The conventional toe is flat across 600. When I say spike, I mean to the level of the 90 spike above comparing the two toe in set ups. Bad locally but not so bad in the overall context.

I am open to advice. But look at the sweep modes, and then consider floor modes of 30, 60, 95ish (90 interacts with other modes weirdly), 120, and at higher volumes a sharp spike from the floor at 129. And heating ducts that kick off at 100 and go to 120, volume dependent. I won't ask you to consider what happens when I can open 10 windows and a door to the outside on the sides and back of the MLP, but trust me, it's really nice when I do.

A month or so from now I will be getting some nice stand mounts for the room, to be pulled out when used. So I don't really need to improve this at all. I'll still try, but no hurry on that.

Here's what the Heresies do out close to where the new speakers will sit (8' out 3.25' from side walls). Using the SVS for a crossover, room correction 40 -12 slope, crossover 30 -24 slope, -60 gain. No EQ. So just high passing:

Pull down 125, golden. For Heresies at least. I expect Ascend Sierra LXs will do pretty well near that spot!

Anyway, I do think this can work well, for sitting far from speakers or any other reasons side walls are an issue. It will not cure all ills. It cured my most critical ills, that's for sure.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

...both of these set ups spike 300hz (not uncommon) but the Ishi spikes 600 as well.

I want to emphasize that this issue is not related to the set up per se.

The first issue is that the 24"x16" side of my tv stand had been moved to be almost parallel with the side wall (600). Taking care of that (temp fix-angle and foam) pretty much brought things down into line for 600 and partially for 300. The 300 happened because the speaker at that side (speaker is up just above the tv stand) is now a almost a pure corner horn. Corner to back of speaker was the issue, so a temp fix (two big rounded vases stuffed with paper flowers) was applied.

No measures because this is not about my room, but the speaker set up method. I just had to report one issue with the set up was 100% on my not looking at things in light of moving stuff around.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Ok, here we go. First, some context.

Speakers are 1984 Heresies on stands and level. We've had them for 20+ years (gift to us), recapped and redrivered and mid horn mod in the last 2 years, but still. No sub in any of these measures for the current placement.

In order to compare to the more conventional set up measure I have saved, I am using white noise at 65db into RTA. I usually start with that (75db when windows can be opened) because I have normal room modes, but also a 30hz drum of a floor. I need to load that floor up because as it activates it affects things in a pretty dramatic way. There is a spike, but not a constant spike at the level shown at 30, a truck driving past or cat jumping off a chair can spike that 10-15db when the floor is loaded.

Additionally, using white noise I can just do some basic EQ on the fly by using RTA and peak captures. Fast to do. I have a 9 band eq on my phone and for when I am using a sub DSP on an SVS sb100 pro. Then I come back the next day and work more in detail. These are what I consider "exploratory" measures. 200hz and below.

All graphs are 1/6 smoothing, because that shows what I want to show most clearly.

Before I compare, here's 65 db white noise, and a sweep at the same system volume, Ishi set up. You will note a lot of room gain, but pay particular attention to 60hz.

View attachment 348901

This is just at the point where the floor starts to load up. My main goal with EQ is to keep that 60 down as long as possible as volume increases. Which given a room null at 60, takes some consideration.

Ok, here's the conventional corner set up (which I have had for a whopping 2 weeks,) and the Ishi set up. Conventional (red) has EQ at 125 and 250 pulled down 2db, Ishi has 63 and 125 pulled down 2db.


View attachment 348903


So, better. I hate the 90-110 bump which I have battled for a long time. Better at 65db at least, at 70 others issues will happen for sure. But as of now, 65 is my median volume.

Is the Ishi better in all ways? No. Way more locked down, less (unmeasured so far) distortion. But both of these set ups spike 300hz (not uncommon) but the Ishi spikes 600 as well. The conventional toe is flat across 600. When I say spike, I mean to the level of the 90 spike above comparing the two toe in set ups. Bad locally but not so bad in the overall context.

I am open to advice. But look at the sweep modes, and then consider floor modes of 30, 60, 95ish (90 interacts with other modes weirdly), 120, and at higher volumes a sharp spike from the floor at 129. And heating ducts that kick off at 100 and go to 120, volume dependent. I won't ask you to consider what happens when I can open 10 windows and a door to the outside on the sides and back of the MLP, but trust me, it's really nice when I do.

A month or so from now I will be getting some nice stand mounts for the room, to be pulled out when used. So I don't really need to improve this at all. I'll still try, but no hurry on that.

Here's what the Heresies do out close to where the new speakers will sit (8' out 3.25' from side walls). Using the SVS for a crossover, room correction 40 -12 slope, crossover 30 -24 slope, -60 gain. No EQ. So just high passing:

View attachment 348905


Pull down 125, golden. For Heresies at least. I expect Ascend Sierra LXs will do pretty well near that spot!

Anyway, I do think this can work well, for sitting far from speakers or any other reasons side walls are an issue. It will not cure all ills. It cured my most critical ills, that's for sure.

Interesting how Ishiwata toe-in improved your measurements.

 

[sergeauckland]

Interesting how Brittain toe-in improved your measurements.

Fixed for you!

You're welcome.
S

 

[Anthony LoFi]

I am a Tannoy owner and the manufacturers instructions for my speakers is to advise to toe in the driver to cross in front of the main listening position.
The distance from the intersection of each drivers point would be adjusted depending on the room reflective surfaces.
I experimented and found the intersection 200mm in front of the MLP gave the best results.

The toe-in or non toe-in is to allow the science of audio waves to create and stereo image both in width and depth.
I dont believe it has any affect on frequency response.
Easily said than done. So we need an audio example to test the ability of the 3D effect that well recorded and reproduced audio can illustrate.

I have found such an example below.

General Image and Resolution Test, by Various Artists

from the album Best of Chesky Jazz & More Audiophile Tests, Vol. 2

cheskyrecords.bandcamp.com

This specific track is recorded in a large church where 4 people in a line with some distance between them enter the room on the front left, walk towards the stereo microphone and do 3 circular revolutions while each play an acoustic instrument (shaker, drum etc) then retrace their path back to the door they entered.
According to the liner notes, this will test the ability of the systems 3D imaging by hearing each player, one after another revolve behind your head.
They circle the listener 3 times

My system with a toe-in as described above have achieved this ability but not without may hours of trial and error.
To validate this I have asked my two sons without any prompting about the test, played the track and they both asked "how did they do that".
Dont know if that counts as scientific though.

So Im not sure if streaming services have this track or if the quality is enough to produce the effect, I purchased the CD years ago.
The only other track I use is from "Amused to Death" by Roger Waters. The opening track has a faint dog barking from the rear left.
No as good as the Chesky track.
I would interested if any here have more easier accessible tracks which could be used to verify the 3D imaging of our systems.
Many examples I have been recommended in the past are audio tracks from a music CD which can be subjective (Amused to Death) and think actual audio tracks designed specifically to demonstrate this ability of a stereo system would be better.

 

[Thomas_A]

I am a Tannoy owner and the manufacturers instructions for my speakers is to advise to toe in the driver to cross in front of the main listening position.
The distance from the intersection of each drivers point would be adjusted depending on the room reflective surfaces.
I experimented and found the intersection 200mm in front of the MLP gave the best results.

The toe-in or non toe-in is to allow the science of audio waves to create and stereo image both in width and depth.
I dont believe it has any affect on frequency response.
Easily said than done. So we need an audio example to test the ability of the 3D effect that well recorded and reproduced audio can illustrate.

I have found such an example below.

General Image and Resolution Test, by Various Artists

from the album Best of Chesky Jazz & More Audiophile Tests, Vol. 2

cheskyrecords.bandcamp.com

This specific track is recorded in a large church where 4 people in a line with some distance between them enter the room on the front left, walk towards the stereo microphone and do 3 circular revolutions while each play an acoustic instrument (shaker, drum etc) then retrace their path back to the door they entered.
According to the liner notes, this will test the ability of the systems 3D imaging by hearing each player, one after another revolve behind your head.
They circle the listener 3 times

My system with a toe-in as described above have achieved this ability but not without may hours of trial and error.
To validate this I have asked my two sons without any prompting about the test, played the track and they both asked "how did they do that".
Dont know if that counts as scientific though.

So Im not sure if streaming services have this track or if the quality is enough to produce the effect, I purchased the CD years ago.
The only other track I use is from "Amused to Death" by Roger Waters. The opening track has a faint dog barking from the rear left.
No as good as the Chesky track.
I would interested if any here have more easier accessible tracks which could be used to verify the 3D imaging of our systems.
Many examples I have been recommended in the past are audio tracks from a music CD which can be subjective (Amused to Death) and think actual audio tracks designed specifically to demonstrate this ability of a stereo system would be better.

Another track

 

[theREALdotnet]

I have found such an example below.

General Image and Resolution Test, by Various Artists

from the album Best of Chesky Jazz & More Audiophile Tests, Vol. 2

cheskyrecords.bandcamp.com

The Chesky Jazz Sampler Vol. 1 disc contains a synthetic test signal – track 11 LEDR (listening environment diagnostic recording) – that has served me well in tuning speaker placement and toe-in. Unfortunately, the booklet doesn’t give much guidance. I found instructions on how to use the test signals for diagnosing issues with both placement and toe-in in an AudioBeat article. The test is quite sensitive and easy to do by ear. You basically evaluate how smoothly a shaker signal travels from one side to the other. It is quite easy to tell whether it lingers anywhere along the path, either left and right or in the middle. Based on that, you adjust speaker distance and toe-in.

The gist:

The LEDR test signals have appeared on various other CDs, too.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

Thanks Realdot,
I will hunt it down. Yes LEDR test audio has been around and believe proven to be a tool to evaluate and outcome.

We all here sprout theory and ways to improve our audio but rarely do we have a way to authenticate the proposition.
your diligence may have found a way to at least see if the sound stage changes when speaker placement and toe-in is concerned.
Appreciated.

PS Is Hitchens Razor related to Christopher? a close mate of Occums?

 

[JStewart]

The LEDR test signals have appeared on various other CDs, too.

And on this website

Audio Tests

Test your audio equipment online. Check for frequency response, dynamic range, stereo imaging and more!

www.audiocheck.net

 

[JStewart]

This attached doc for time-intensity trading has been on the web for years, but I can’t find the author’s hosting site any longer and his or her name isn’t mentioned within for appropriate credit.

Along with Earl Geddes, the author gives credit to others, one of whom is Duke Lejeune. This is you, @Duke ? Perhaps you know who the author is?

 

[Duke]

This attached doc for time-intensity trading has been on the web for years, but I can’t find the author’s hosting site any longer and his or her name isn’t mentioned within for appropriate credit.

Along with Earl Geddes, the author gives credit to others, one of whom is Duke Lejeune. This is you, @Duke ? Perhaps you know who the author is?

I don't know who the author is. My name is included as one who "discussed these concepts", but I'm just an adopter and advocate, not an originator or developer.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

And on this website

Audio Tests

Test your audio equipment online. Check for frequency response, dynamic range, stereo imaging and more!

www.audiocheck.net

Well that was an eye (ear) opener. Thanks JStewart. Really valuable test site with many valid tests we can all do.
Really like the ABX online tests.

I recommend trying just a few of the test on this website. You may find several hours later, you have further serious considerations to apply to your existing system and the limits of your own hearing.

Warning: Be very careful about going down this path. It may prove that our hearing cant take advantage of the advances in technology.

 

[kschmit2]

This attached doc for time-intensity trading has been on the web for years, but I can’t find the author’s hosting site any longer and his or her name isn’t mentioned within for appropriate credit.

Along with Earl Geddes, the author gives credit to others, one of whom is Duke Lejeune. This is you, @Duke ? Perhaps you know who the author is?

it says "Bill Waslo" in the PDF metadata

 

[JStewart]

it says "Bill Waslo" in the PDF metadata

Thank you!