Probably not. But on the off-chance you decide to peek at my reply, you might want to do a bit of self reflection as to why that pattern exists.I do see a pattern here, and that is NOT misinformation
Probably not. But on the off-chance you decide to peek at my reply, you might want to do a bit of self reflection as to why that pattern exists.I do see a pattern here, and that is NOT misinformation
I think this is mostly a strawman. Can you point me to a few regular posters sincerely making this argument?
Yes,the AVR threads are disappointing lots of times.I stopped reading them for this reason.Finding examples would take far too much time, which I do not have enough of right this moment for sure.
I would recommend you look under the last dozen AVR reviews as a start. A lot of reading, so not expecting you to actually do this, but for sure a somewhat common thing I have seen numerous times.
Mostly an attitude of purely "Discounting" certain products as completely substandard, based on merely reading Amir's measurement of SINAD.
That alone is what drew me to this thread, and made me watch the video![]()
On the other hand though they don't like reading that a touch of a half-baked EQ embedded in a DAC can crumble its world by 20-30db.
Your bold portion is important. It's important to not "oversell" what a particular measurement represents. That can allow someone to leverage it against the basic tenants of science.Well he totally missed the situation where you can very easily tell 2 amps (or DACs) apart that in a measurement both have 110 SINAD.
The reason being frequency response. He could have shown that in 3 short clips as well (low, high and no roll-off) but some people with rolled off gear (like on a phone) would not hear it)
SINAD is measured at 1kHz and an amp (or DAC) can have a considerable roll-off in the lows (and/or highs) that is audible yet have very low distortion at 1kHz AND very low noise for instance.
All that is needed is a little disclaimer displaying what SINAD can show (as explained in the video, that can be short) and what it does not.
The same goes for the Harman score. Even the inventor states that one should not look at single digits but rather at differences >10 and even then the tilt is more important.
People need education what measurements mean (can and can not show). This can be as simple as a page with this info and a link under each plot pointing to it.
Sure,take it from an EQ champion like miniDSP who struggled even after so many years and still partial fixes are in place.If it’s not too much trouble, can you point me to some review or thread discussing this issue?
Reason is that I am considering for future upgrade, DAC with built in PEQ. I want to learn and understand more about this issue, and the root cause.
Thanks
I totally agree with the above with one exception.Here is the problem with this kind of "let me save you from yourself video." Our top problem in audio is subjectivity and random assessment of audio. Any video that wants to save people needs to focus on that. The unreliability and randomness of ad-hoc listening tests. To take on SINAD instead means losing sight of real issues in audio evaluation.
Even if someone goes an upgrades a $300 DAC to a $500 DAC for better SINAD, not much is lost. Contrast that with spending $1000 on cables, $2000 on power conditioners, $1000 for footers, $10,000 for a DAC, etc. That is where massive damage is done to people's pocketbooks, and understanding of audio performance and fidelity. In Cameron's video he defends such as tubes sounding good, propagating such myths.
There are real problems in audio and there are nits. SINAD overreliance is the latter. No different than someone washing their hands multiple times a day.
Something else that would help here: systems. Hi-fi components screw everything up by forcing consumers to be systems engineers. All the fuss over choosing an amp goes away when you buy active speakers. Let's finish the job and get everyone on Dante or something.It's not ASR's fault,is the fault of the vocal new found faith zealots who blanket and generalize everything thinking only 0dB,something that will never happen in a healthy system.
Yes, but to Amir's point, there is always a bigger scam out there. Upgrading your DAC to go from 90 to 110dB SINAD is pretty much never worth it. On the other side of the street, we have Audioquest coming out with new, improved, fancier cables that are supposedly worth upgrading to from your previous set of wildly overpriced cables.We HAVE to point out that sure,get the newer and better if you're after a DAC,but there's absolutely no reason to chance your 6 months older one for a newer.
That's the difference.
How long does ^that^ take?Finding examples would take far too much time, which I do not have enough of right this moment for sure.
The video was something like 45 minutes long... ?That alone is what drew me to this thread, and made me watch the video![]()
I will wait. Not interested in researching it myself either. But I think when charges are leveled they should be substantiated.Finding examples would take far too much time, which I do not have enough of right this moment for sure.
The psychopathology of shopping for treats isn't going to go away if we do.We HAVE to point out that sure,get the newer and better if you're after a DAC,but there's absolutely no reason to chance your 6 months older one for a newer.
Yes, but to Amir's point, there is always a bigger scam out there. Upgrading your DAC to go from 90 to 110dB SINAD is pretty much never worth it. On the other side of the street, we have Audioquest coming out with new, improved, fancier cables that are supposedly worth upgrading to from your previous set of wildly overpriced cables.
Upgrading to go from great SINAD to still-great SINAD is pointless, but at least the SINAD improvements are real...
Evaluating the merits of equipment is not necessarily a "two way street" with SINAD.I think where I find "Issue", is many posters I have seen, Value SINAD over everything, which is their prerogative. But to me it hints at an issue, when said posters, put out blunt statements about "I would never even CONSIDER that product based on SINAD alone it will sound unlistenable".........but NEVER reference that they are simply reading a number that was measured, and have never even HEARD the item in question.
Please let us not become like the IASCA (car audio sound competition) of the 90s where they became so infatuated about gnat farts at maximum and minimum volume settings, they started sprinkling noise gates throughout the signal chain.Play a 0dB test tone (NOT AT FULL LEVEL-BEWARE!) and attenuate it at -80dB (better with an analog way so noise will go down too if there's any)
Tell us what you hear,either noise or distortion.
Sure,take it from an EQ champion like miniDSP who struggled even after so many years and still partial fixes are in place.
Now imagine "newbies" at the EQ field.
Here:
![]()
DSP Measurements and Rising Noise Floor
In several threads related to DSP platforms I've seen requests for measurements with filters engaged. I thought it unlikely that implementing filters in a DSP would have measurable effect on noise / distortion other than the obvious change in the fundamental, however @Sokel recently mentioned...www.audiosciencereview.com
There's more,but it's a good start.
On the other hand we have to bow to the excellence of RME for example but that's not surprising.
I often found that specifically designed time-domain transients can significantly increase the audibility threshold between two devices. Especially since time-variant signals generally are not properly captured/characterized in purely the frequency domain.Yes,noise is one of the most telling clues at ABX and general.
Why don't we do neither of them (specially the cable,except if one likes the looks,suit with their rug,or something) and push people (God forbid,not me,I'm far too one to do that) to the one most meaningful upgrade of all,speakers.Yes, but to Amir's point, there is always a bigger scam out there. Upgrading your DAC to go from 90 to 110dB SINAD is pretty much never worth it. On the other side of the street, we have Audioquest coming out with new, improved, fancier cables that are supposedly worth upgrading to from your previous set of wildly overpriced cables.
Upgrading to go from great SINAD to still-great SINAD is pointless, but at least the SINAD improvements are real...