Integra DRX-8.4

[valerianf]

@FFROCK After your high SPL test could you confirm that the DRX-8.4 is more powerful than the RZ50, without any distortion?

 

[dlaloum]

@FFROCK After your high SPL test could you confirm that the DRX-8.4 is more powerful than the RZ50, without any distortion?

He did say in his posting, that there was a dramatic improvement in clarity.

But confirming that an amp is more powerful requires some rather more objective test tools!

ie: the subjective response is clearly yes - but that may not give you the answer you are looking for. - we need someone to send one to Amir for testing

 

[ban25]

I have found that to be NOT true. I run my system without any worries about heating issues. It runs cool with very slight warmth to the touch after a few hours of watching content. I have the Anthem 540 and that runs very warm to hot and I have concerns about its longevity. So, for anybody interested, I believe this unit is very stable and runs cool.

+1 My unit is cool to the touch after hours of continuous use. The surface area on all four amp heatsinks is substantial. I also notice that the fans over the HDMI board do run at low speed on a regular basis and they will turn themselves off after a minute or so.

 

[ban25]

That is a good sign.

Still leaves the question about what the relay click is about as volume is turned up!?

There is a relay click when you raise the volume level above -20 dB (or reduce the level below). It's changing rails to save power. This is the same behavior as D+M products.

 

[rvsixer]

Pardon if I missed this in the thread, but is there a purchaser of this AVR device here who has or will send this in for ASR testing?

I was just about to purchase a Denon 4800 now that they are down to $1999, but this device wisely includes XLR input/outputs . Though the low preamp output specs are of concern.

 

[dlaloum]

+1 My unit is cool to the touch after hours of continuous use. The surface area on all four amp heatsinks is substantial. I also notice that the fans over the HDMI board do run at low speed on a regular basis and they will turn themselves off after a minute or so.

Have you noticed whether, or how often, the fans under the main power amp heatsinks trigger?

 

[ban25]

Have you noticed whether, or how often, the fans under the main power amp heatsinks trigger?

Those are hard to discern, but I don't think they are running at all because I can hear when the HDMI/processor fans spin up, but nothing from the amps. Makes sense given that most of the heat will be generated on the processor side. Normally zero or one of the processor fans will run at low speed (spinning some vinyl at the moment and one of the two fans is on). You'll sometimes see both fans turn on a high for ~5 seconds or so when entering/exiting standby. Fan speed (Low/High) is visible in the web UI. Overall, it seems to be cool and well controlled.

 

[dlaloum]

Those are hard to discern, but I don't think they are running at all because I can hear when the HDMI/processor fans spin up, but nothing from the amps. Makes sense given that most of the heat will be generated on the processor side. Normally zero or one of the processor fans will run at low speed (spinning some vinyl at the moment and one of the two fans is on). You'll sometimes see both fans turn on a high for ~5 seconds or so when entering/exiting standby. Fan speed (Low/High) is visible in the web UI. Overall, it seems to be cool and well controlled.

Bodes well for long life!

 

[Ssmokeyy]

Where did u read the drx 8.4 has low preamp specs?

 

[peng]

Where did u read the drx 8.4 has low preamp specs?

He probably read it from the spec sheet and_or the owners manual, and misunderstood the 1 or 1.2 V as max., when it is not. Manufacturers should do a better job than just say 1.2 (or 1.0) V.

 

[Ssmokeyy]

Seems like that would be crazy low. why would they put xlr jacks on it if they didn't have any voltage at all. I bet there 3-5 volts on xlr.

 

[dlaloum]

Seems like that would be crazy low. why would they put xlr jacks on it if they didn't have any voltage at all. I bet there 3-5 volts on xlr.

All the lower end Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer AVR's are "specced" as 1V output - which is the norm / convention for line level signals.

When measured on the bench, they managed 3.5V without clipping.

The 8.4 has XLR outputs, so they have fitted additional circuitry I assume... with most likely additional gain on the XLR's (for which the convention is 1.4V ) - but I would be floored if there were less than 3.4V available on any of the outputs

 

[asaturno585]

All the lower end Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer AVR's are "specced" as 1V output - which is the norm / convention for line level signals.

When measured on the bench, they managed 3.5V without clipping.

The 8.4 has XLR outputs, so they have fitted additional circuitry I assume... with most likely additional gain on the XLR's (for which the convention is 1.4V ) - but I would be floored if there were less than 3.4V available on any of the outputs

This is what the user manual has:
Rated XLR Output Level and Impedance PRE OUT : 2 V/220 Ω

 

[dlaloum]

This is what the user manual has:
Rated XLR Output Level and Impedance PRE OUT : 2 V/220 Ω

Which is a "conventional" / standard XLR output level - it doesn't indicate what the maximum is!

 

[rvsixer]

He probably read it from the spec sheet and_or the owners manual, and misunderstood the 1 or 1.2 V as max., when it is not. Manufacturers should do a better job than just say 1.2 (or 1.0) V.

Peng, I've read your posts for a long time and always admired the research and thoughtfulness that went into them, so am somewhat surprised by all the incorrect assumptions made about my comment:
1) I did get the info from the owner's manual
2) I did not misunderstand anything, or assume what was posted was max voltage. I simply posted I was concerned about the voltages as listed.
3) However since you brought up my "assumed" voltages and my "misunderstanding" of them, and then posted those assumed voltages are definitively NOT correct; please post what the output voltages actually are since you appear to know them.

There are quite a few AVR's that only put out unclipped 1-1.4V on unbalanced (my Yamaha being one), AND other devices tested here that could only manage 2V p-p unclipped on balanced connections (one of which I sent in for ASR testing). Note these are same low voltages that Integra lists for this device.
Hence the concern we might very well have a low preout device here as well, if their own documentation is any indication.

 

[peng]

Peng, I've read your posts for a long time and always admired the research and thoughtfulness that went into them, so am somewhat surprised by all the incorrect assumptions made about my comment:
1) I did get the info from the owner's manual
2) I did not misunderstand anything, or assume what was posted was max voltage. I simply posted I was concerned about the voltages as listed.
3) However since you brought up my "assumed" voltages and my "misunderstanding" of them, and then posted those assumed voltages are definitively NOT correct; please post what the output voltages actually are since you appear to know them.

There are quite a few AVR's that only put out unclipped 1-1.4V on unbalanced (my Yamaha being one), AND other devices tested here that could only manage 2V p-p unclipped on balanced connections (one of which I sent in for ASR testing). Note these are same low voltages that Integra lists for this device.
Hence the concern we might very well have a low preout device here as well, if their own documentation is any indication.

I wasn't sure, so I said "probably.......". Now that you have posted your questions, I went ahead and downloaded the instruction manual. My further comments are as below:

1) So, I assumed correctly on this one, you did get the info from the manual, thank you for confirming this.
2) My "probably" covers the whole sentence. If you did get it from the manual, and is still concerned with the voltage, it would seem that you probably misunderstood what that part of the spec mean, sorry about making such an assumption. Regardless, I said so because no one (except the manufacturers, or those who research on them by contacting the right people) actually know what those pre out spec mean, I often cited the power consumption of AVRs as another example of those kind of specs that simply do not convey enough information, and often led to misunderstanding, or unnecessary concerns (or the opposite, such as being too optimistic in some cases) by their readers.
3) I used the 1-1.4 V as example based on what I have read from many owner's manuals and service manuals; and so I know the typical numbers are the likes of 1 V, 1.2 V (such as Yamaha, D+M, Onkyo), sometimes a little high, or even up to 2 V, or higher in rare cases. When I said they are obviously not correct, I referred to readers who assumed those specified voltages are "maximum", otherwise I would not say they are incorrect, because they obvious are correct under the conditions they were measured, or designed for, by the manufactures. They just simply failed to tell us the detailed measured conditions, and/or under other conditions. I hope I made this point clear, if not, please kindly tell me and I will try to do a beter job explaining my point.

As far as what the output voltages actually are, I do not know. I don't know why you feel I "appear to know them". If I do, I would have mentioned the number. I am very frustrated with manufacturer specs such as this, the pre out voltage, power consumptions, power output spec, among others, that don't usually provide enough information for their potential customers to make their informed decision, without also rely on careful examination of bench measurement results such as ASR's.

Back to this specific example, I pasted Onkyo/Integra's specs on the pre out below:

They stated clearly, from the RCA output, the spec is 1 V/470 ohm for both the main zone and 1 V/2.2 kOhm for zone 2. The part that is not clear, is that it does not say anything about at what SINAD/THD+N that the 1 V/470 ohm was obtained, and what exactly does 1V/470 ohm mean, does it mean 1 V into a 470 ohm resistor? If so, would it then be 2 V/940 ohm, 4 V/1.88 kOhm (Ohm's law)? If I were to take an educated guess, I would say it probably does mean the pre out can sustain 1 V driving into a load impedance of 470 ohm and it will be able to out higher voltages into higher load impedance, but how high? I really don't want to guess...

So, if you want to know the maximum voltage, you would have to either purchase the service manual, and hope there are enough information in it for us to determine the maximum voltage at an acceptable SINAD, or wait for one unit to get measured by a 3rd party such as Audioholics.com and/or Audiosciencereview.com, or get it from Onkyo/Integra.

Given the RZ50 was measured by ASR, and it did well on the 2 V test, I would say it is reasonable to assume (just an assumption, based on educated guess) the Integra 8.4 can do the same, or even better. So, my guess would be: max 3.5 at 85 to 90 dB SINAD, a little higher, may be up to 4 V if you accept lower SINAD.

I hope this answers your questions, and please let me know if it doesn't, and I apologize for assuming you probably have misunderstood the spec as "maximum", I should have worded it clearer.

 

[soundsburysteak]

I just picked one of these up, however out of the box (no calibration yet) the volume level seems to be off. The audio is nearly inaudible at volume level 30, yet almost reaches the too loud stage around volume 60 so I know the power is there. Will calibration resolve this issue or is there maybe something else off here.

 

[ban25]

I just picked on of these up, however out of the box (no calibration yet) the volume level seems to be off. The audio is nearly inaudible at volume level 30, yet almost reaches the too loud stage around volume 60 so I know the power is there. Will calibration resolve this issue or is there maybe something else off here.

For starters, I recommend changing to the relative volume scale (-dB) rather than the absolute scale.

 

[soundsburysteak]

For starters, I recommend changing to the relative volume scale (-dB) rather than the absolute scale.

Thanks for the suggestion. Done. For reference, volume 30 where the audio basically drops off corresponds to -52dB. I should probably give some additional background.

The integra was a follow-on upgrade after recently swapping out my B&W CM1 bookshelves for a pair of Focal 826-d as my fronts. I was still running my Onkyo TX-NR636. I was floored by the increase in clarity and the sheer quantity of sound produced. The improvement in sensitivity was very noticeable as even low volume was crystal clear. I ended up reducing the volume levels I used across my entire input set by around 5 notches. I simply didn't need the extra push to pull out dialog.

The integra isn't even coming close to the same performance which is the root of my concern. The audio drops off very fast with volume changes and ramps up too quickly on the other end.

 

[ban25]

Thanks for the suggestion. Done. For reference, volume 30 where the audio basically drops off corresponds to -52dB. I should probably give some additional background.

The integra was a follow-on upgrade after recently swapping out my B&W CM1 bookshelves for a pair of Focal 826-d as my fronts. I was still running my Onkyo TX-NR636. I was floored by the increase in clarity and the sheer quantity of sound produced. The improvement in sensitivity was very noticeable as even low volume was crystal clear. I ended up reducing the volume levels I used across my entire input set by around 5 notches. I simply didn't need the extra push to pull out dialog.

The integra isn't even coming close to the same performance which is the root of my concern. The audio drops off very fast with volume changes and ramps up too quickly on the other end.

So the problem is, at -52 dB, you're listening at whisper quiet volume level. For normal listening, in a large room, I listen at -18 dB. If it's movies, I'll set it to -8 dB or so. Don't focus on the number on the screen, invest in an SPL meter and figure out exactly what level you are hearing at your seating position.