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In-wall Speaker Measurements (Monoprice THX-365IW)

redshift

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how many human kidneys are those speakers worth?

It depends on your immune defense and blood group. I got some OCD issues with boring boxes standing on floors behaving like crap near walls.

On another note; don’t ask how much I have paid for my bicycles in total. :rolleyes:

If you’re on a tight budget. Get second hand OA 51’s. About $1.5k USD for a couple in mint condition upgraded with better drivers and xovers. They probably measure even better than the newly produced OA 51’s (called OA 61) that I splashed out an arm and both legs for.

(Btw, I have a few bicycles that I don’t need anymore. Interested?)

How do they sound. Good I think. Your mileage may vary if you’re used to floorstanders.

However, nothing comes close to headphones and near fielders if it’s raw sound quality that matters.
 

q3cpma

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Thanks a lot! Really like this quasi-coaxial MT design that looks very much like MEG's RL901, and quite amazing for that price.
I think that continuing until you can have faith in the truthfulness of these measurements is good. A good idea would be to have someone measure his installed model on-axis with good precision (nearfield LF spliced with the rest) then compare with what you get.
 

tifune

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. Klippel NFS has a module for measuring drivers in a baffle. It is a combination of a special baffle and different measurements system where only the surface of the baffle is scanned. I asked for an evaluation license for the module which normally costs more than 4,000 Euros. The baffle is even more expensive so I decided to build my own.

Now that you've done a few rounds of testing with your own design any thoughts on what may be gained, if anything, by purchasing Klippel's version?
 

redshift

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Now that you've done a few rounds of testing with your own design any thoughts on what may be gained, if anything, by purchasing Klippel's version?

Bah, create a GitHub repo where you store the jupyter notebooks for analyzing the data. Whack in some numba/scipy GPU accelerated libraries and you’d have those analyses and algos done in no time.

Make it open source. Perhaps some angry Finns will show up with pull requests and berate you for your terrible and ugly code.
 

anphex

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Question is rather: is there demand for reviews of in wall speakers? When it's considerably more effort than measuring normal speakers while the ratio of people actually buying and installing them is one to hundred I don't think it's worth going that lenghts. Unless of course you're having fun Amir and it's a subject you'd like to research.
 

redshift

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Question is rather: is there demand for reviews of in wall speakers? When it's considerably more effort than measuring normal speakers while the ratio of people actually buying and installing them is one to hundred I don't think it's worth going that lenghts. Unless of course you're having fun Amir and it's a subject you'd like to research.

Walls and rooms are difficult, floorstanders and EQ’ing is relatively easy. Why put in the effort when the usual suspects can be peddled with a ruler flat spec sheet?
 

abdo123

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Question is rather: is there demand for reviews of in wall speakers? When it's considerably more effort than measuring normal speakers while the ratio of people actually buying and installing them is one to hundred I don't think it's worth going that lenghts. Unless of course you're having fun Amir and it's a subject you'd like to research.

there are much less in-wall speakers in the (mid and high-end) market as well so it balances out.
 

robpbg

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Can someone explain why resonances are not more of an issue? I would assume most are installing into drywall and resonances would be a huge deal. Also the cavity is often shallow (back reflections) and it's volume could be limited by fire breaks in the walls (horizontal 2x4 between studs).
 

abdo123

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Can someone explain why resonances are not more of an issue? I would assume most are installing into drywall and resonances would be a huge deal. Also the cavity is often shallow (back reflections) and it's volume could be limited by fire breaks in the walls (horizontal 2x4 between studs).

there is little sound radiating behind an infinite baffle. Also American dry wall is not super air tight or rigid so whatever energy that might escape there can dissipate.

However if your walls are infinitely rigid (reinforced concrete) then issues might pop up very quickly.
 
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outlookrt

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This is great. A someone who's lived in several small flats in London over the past 7 years, the performance of small speakers as close to, or ON, the wall of great interest to me. For small spaces I'm starting to think that sealed speakers on the wall combined with a modern 'micro-sub' (SVS or KEF) or two could, and DRC of course, provide a very discreet yet well-measureing setup. I'm particularly interested in Lyngdorfs approach to speakers using a 2.2 setup consisting of small on-wall satellites and 2 subwoofers in the corners time aligned and integrated with their own dps/DRC.

So while demand for in-wall may not be huge, if this setup allows for the measurement of ON-wall speakers, or ones that are designed to be used as close to the wall as possible, seems very exciting to me!
 

Francis Vaughan

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Howdy, why would this eliminate SBIR?
They don't eliminate SBIR.

SBIR improvment is one half of the advantage however. You effectively halve the mess since you are only radiating into a half space. Since the worst of the mess comes from the nearby surfaces removing the rear wall is a big win. Once you get to second reflections you are already well ahead of the game, and the mess remains devoid of the strong effects due to the first reflections.

The second win is removing baffle diffraction effects. No more baffle step compensation, and the mid range is no longer controlled by proximity to the edge of the cabinet. We tend to be oblivious to this part of the equation. The reason the speaker measured here has such a wide directivity well into the upper mids is simply that there isn't a baffle edge reflecting the energy back. What you see is the natural directivity and response of the driver. Choice of crossover points remains important but is directed more by the driver diameter and capability than the baffle design.

In ordinary cabinet speakers the designer is always compromising things in order to get a useful response in the face of the cabinet effects. You don't see this in any obvious place, as it gets folded into the overall driver response, but it is sitting there under the surface and is responsible for a whole host of second order ripples and artefacts.

Clearly the design response needs to take account of the different mounting, as the final at-listener response still needs to be level and smooth. But this becomes easier.

Can someone explain why resonances are not more of an issue? I would assume most are installing into drywall and resonances would be a huge deal. Also the cavity is often shallow (back reflections) and it's volume could be limited by fire breaks in the walls (horizontal 2x4 between studs).

Drywall and other walling materials are usually fairly well damped. You don't notice them resonating in a room with box speakers driving the room, yet the energy hitting the walls is similar, just more spread out. Indeed drywall is a good starting point for a dead walling material.

Box resonances don't need to be any bigger problem than any other sort of box. The dimensions are a bit odd, and so the frequencies that resonances might appear at are different, but other than that, nothing special. The very shallow depth tunes the F-R resonance out of the passband of a woofer. If you have a 2-way you might have a bit more to contend with, but some appropriate absorption will help. IMHO such resonances are often unappreciated in importance, but they are not insurmountable. If you see peaks at about 800Hz you might guess where they came from.
 

Bear123

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Howdy, why would this eliminate SBIR?
I think folks are creating an argument here when there really isn't one. SBIR is commonly used to refer to the effect from the wall behind the speaker, or the front wall. That's all. In wall eliminates this. So when people say in walls eliminate SBIR, I think most people understand what is being referred to, and in walls do indeed eliminate SBIR from the front wall.
 

MediumRare

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Massive jump from 1.8 rating with the other measurement method!
Isn't this justification enough for the new system? (assuming there are enough options to test).

If I had seen this I might have completely changed the concept for the house I built last year!

@amirm, any chance of a subjective listening test of this setup versus the (somewhat higher-priced and well-testing) Revel M105 you have?
 

levimax

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Very interesting.... if you combined these or similar in wall speakers with some infinite baffle in wall subwoofers you could have a true full range system with high WAF for a reasonable cost. Of course the problem with infinite baffle subs is what is on the other side of the wall.
 

danzilla31

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I'm all for this if it's possible for you to achieve Amir. I mean nobody else would really have the ability to do this. What site could claim they have the ability to measure every single speaker out there including in walls?

This helps me I'm about to start a thread here on in walls I need to replace up in my ceiling and a certain model of these is becoming a big possibility. Not these the LCR or center channel version. With this improved measurements I'm confident members here with there knowledge could help steer me on my buying choice

That means a lot and wouldn't have been possible without your efforts on this so thank you very much and as a person with a home theater this matters a lot to me
 

sarumbear

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Not sure how many people use in-wall speakers, but certainly puts a premium on front ending the room design. So, not for me (although my wife likes). ;)
Practically every professionally installed home theatre use in-wall speakers. Similarly, every major speaker manufacturer offers a wide range of in-wall speakers.
 

sarumbear

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In-wall or “soffit-mount” installation is something I‘ve seen in older recording and mastering studios...
Not only older. Every purpose built studio has a soffit mount main speaker. It is just that not many new studios are built these days.
 

ROOSKIE

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I think folks are creating an argument here when there really isn't one. SBIR is commonly used to refer to the effect from the wall behind the speaker, or the front wall. That's all. In wall eliminates this. So when people say in walls eliminate SBIR, I think most people understand what is being referred to, and in walls do indeed eliminate SBIR from the front wall.
Not trying to be anal or make a mountain out of a mole hill but since speaker boundary interfence responce is deff not at all only an effect of only the front/host wall I wish for the sake of the many casual readers that somehow that was clear. Using terms like eliminate, give the wrong idea about the situation - help mitigate, remove host wall effect, no front wall SBIR effect, ect could work as shorthand as well as being accurate.
The speaker has several major boundary interference reflections.
Anyway I will drop it, just hoping folks get what I am saying.
I suppose it is kind of like how "distortion" somehow became short for harmonic distortion even though there are many, many types of distortions in sound reproduction.

While I likely won't be doing in walls anytime soon. Really interested in if I would like the sound of in walls. They would be a relative snap to DIY.
 
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