IEMs Single DD vs Multiple Drivers

[Sebby]

View attachment 425371
Thanks for the detailed reply! I'll analyze a bit more, but just take a look at the pre-production Blue 2, overall it looks like to be differently tuned than what they had previously. I'm okay to spend 150$ once, but cant really make it as a hobby and buy left and right sets, till i find my taste. Pretty much got a bullet to nail it.


Out of curiosity give this PEQ for the Zero 2s a try, i have tried to stay as close as possible to 5128 SoundGuys target
Preamp: -5.9 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 20 Hz Gain -3.2 dB Q 1.000
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 7300 Hz Gain -3.2 dB Q 4.100
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 9400 Hz Gain 6.0 dB Q 2.300
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 11460 Hz Gain -5.6 dB Q 3.900
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 15700 Hz Gain 5.9 dB Q 1.500

I just got back from dinner and started fiddling around with an album I love "a different kind of human - step 1" by Aurora. In half an hour I create up with this E.Q. that needs some improvement, but I'm already enjoying it a lot (the parameters are below). I like your E.Q. a little less subjectively, but you've fixed an objective problem of this IEM, as if you had removed a heavy blanket and it can finally breathe. As for Blue 2, I wouldn't trust the preliminary data too much (the past teaches us) but maybe I'm wrong.

Filter 1: ON PK Fc 20 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 1
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 20 Hz Gain 6 dB Q 0.5
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 3500 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 2
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 5000 Hz Gain 3 dB Q 8
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 6000 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 3
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 9500 Hz Gain 5 dB Q 5
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 15000 Hz Gain 7 dB Q 3

The preamp is at -11 but because I have all the profiles set the same so as to have the volumes leveled between them

 

[Dreamfull]

I just got back from dinner and started fiddling around with an album I love "a different kind of human - step 1" by Aurora. In half an hour I create up with this E.Q. that needs some improvement, but I'm already enjoying it a lot (the parameters are below). I like your E.Q. a little less subjectively, but you've fixed an objective problem of this IEM, as if you had removed a heavy blanket and it can finally breathe. As for Blue 2, I wouldn't trust the preliminary data too much (the past teaches us) but maybe I'm wrong.

Filter 1: ON PK Fc 20 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 1
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 20 Hz Gain 6 dB Q 0.5
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 3500 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 2
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 5000 Hz Gain 3 dB Q 8
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 6000 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 3
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 9500 Hz Gain 5 dB Q 5
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 15000 Hz Gain 7 dB Q 3

The preamp is at -11 but because I have all the profiles set the same so as to have the volumes leveled between them

Gotta buy the UAPP PEQ feature to use this, since i'm storing mine on the Jcally JM12, will give it a shot later.

The other day I almost pulled the trigger on the EW300 DSP, but decided to wait just in case if Blue 2s matches its pre-prod FR, they should be released pretty soon. At some Honk Kong summit they have been already exhibitioned with full box and accessories. Taking into account that the Reds has been praised a lot and if the signature matches my taste for this price range i doubt there will be anything better. It will be a good stepping stone anyway for the next set so i can know better what i like and what i don't.

Have you tried EQing your EW300 to match the Sennheiser's or its just impossible to EQ properly so high in the FR?

 

[Sebby]

Well, that data show that IE200 have much treble and upper-mids emphasis than that target curve while Zero 2 appears much more compliant

View attachment 425380

So strictly talking, preferring IE200 is more subjective than objective, and nothing wrong with it.
(p.s. I don't own Zero 2 and my preferred iems are Sonus that also have more emphasis in that region and less bass)

But compliance doesn't interest me, also because the Zero 2 profile is screaming to me (even though it seems to play from 1m underwater), lacking in details (with symphonic and orchestral music I lose a lot of details, including environmental reverberations) and closed in a box. For $25 it has an incredible sound and until a few years ago you could only dream of it even for much higher figures, and it holds up very well to E.Q. (in fact I own one and with my E.Q. I'm listening to one track after another right now and I bought 3 more, given as gifts and everyone was very happy). The problem is that I don't find the Harman curve (even on headphones) fun or timbre-correct but, at most, a good starting point to work on without going crazy because it has an FR that is not very refined and very linear. I'm exaggerating to make my point because the differences are smaller than my words would lead you to believe, but if I wasn't "autistic" from an audio point of view, my passion for audio would be meaningless and there would be no point in staying here: I would have bought a Zero 2, an Apple dongle (thank goodness DACs and Amps are all transparent to my ears now and therefore one less problem. I'm happy with Topping G5 and Fiio BTR17) and I would have closed all the profiles on all the forums like this. What would be the point of staying here? Zero 2 is made to have a very good sound for the average listener, who usually listens to Pop, Rap... all music that can be liked or not (I really like a couple of Rap artists, one American and one Italian) but having a "refined" IEM only makes you hear how badly recorded that music is. You make them simple, still well tuned but very forgiving, and you sell 10,000 of them. Then there are more "refined" and specific solutions and obviously the costs increase if you spend much more money in development to sell 10 times less. You don't need astronomical figures and many expensive IEMs sound bad to me (personal opinion), but I have yet to hear an IEM under $100 that has all the right cards without too many compromises (the perfect IEM does not exist).

 

[Sebby]

Gotta buy the UAPP PEQ feature to use this, since i'm storing mine on the Jcally JM12, will give it a shot later.

The other day I almost pulled the trigger on the EW300 DSP, but decided to wait just in case if Blue 2s matches its pre-prod FR, they should be released pretty soon. At some Honk Kong summit they have been already exhibitioned with full box and accessories. Taking into account that the Reds has been praised a lot and if the signature matches my taste for this price range i doubt there will be anything better. It will be a good stepping stone anyway for the next set so i can know better what i like and what i don't.

Have you tried EQing your EW300 to match the Sennheiser's or its just impossible to EQ properly so high in the FR?

I saw that they reduced the nozzle diameter (which is the most positive news for me) on Blue 2. I will watch it with curiosity...

As for EW300, no, I have not tried to equalize it in any way, because its purpose is more for background listening while working or playing "The Elder Scroll" and by default they have a funny signature sound, so I did not feel the need to equalize, but you are right, I should give it a try.

 

[Heinrich]

You give the perfect example yourself, the Wan'er has huge peaks around 8-12 kHz, which several good multidriver IEMs manage to evade. So the tuning of a single DD is more complicated (no crossover) and can only be done to a certain extend.

The peaks have to be, it is a must. Only where and to what extent depends on the user. The measurement rig is a user as well.

Every human shows such peaks and dips in the natural amplitude frequency response at the eardrum. The eardrum‘s position is where an IEM is measured. Since the IEM circumvents (or misuses) the ear‘s features that form the peaks and dips, it has to generate them, just that peaks and dips, technically.

Each individual shows its own pattern here. It choses that IEM that replicates the natural listening experience the most. I won‘t go into the details, because for starters it may be something to swallow and digest, but to ask for peaks and dips removed is wrong. A real person wants the peaks and dips at the right place, not no peaks and dips.

You may be misguided by the smoothed „target curves“, they are not applicable above 1kHz or so, if a real person is addressed. They are averages targeted (sic!) at a wider audience of millions in order to minimize the error on average over that millions. In longing for featureless treble on the test rig you ask for the error to be there, prematurely giving up on the optimum. If the industry would follow your call, quality potential is cut off.

ps: and it has nothing to do with single DD or not.

 

[RogerSmith]

The peaks have to be, it is a must. Only where and to what extent depends on the user. The measurement rig is a user as well.

Every human shows such peaks and dips in the natural amplitude frequency response at the eardrum. The eardrum‘s position is where an IEM is measured. Since the IEM circumvents (or misuses) the ear‘s features that form the peaks and dips, it has to generate them, just that peaks and dips, technically.

Each individual shows its own pattern here. It choses that IEM that replicates the natural listening experience the most. I won‘t go into the details, because for starters it may be something to swallow and digest, but to ask for peaks and dips removed is wrong. A real person wants the peaks and dips at the right place, not no peaks and dips.

You may be misguided by the smoothed „target curves“, they are not applicable above 1kHz or so, if a real person is addressed. They are averages targeted (sic!) at a wider audience of millions in order to minimize the error on average over that millions. In longing for featureless treble on the test rig you ask for the error to be there, prematurely giving up on the optimum. If the industry would follow your call, quality potential is cut off.

ps: and it has nothing to do with single DD or not.

No, there is just one peak, from the resonance of the ear canal, it sits on the 711 usually at around 8kHz. No other big peak is a must and this can simply be shown by many good IEMs with smooth frequency response don't having any, on no measurment rig.

 

[Dazerdoreal]

Not talking about better or worse, but these frequency responses differ in key areas; 100-400hz is a big deal.
In your ears, these frequency responses will sound not mildly but significantly different.

Sorry to pick on the Supermix 4 again, but given both are roughly Harman tuned, with one being a very cheap single DD, and the other being a multiple driver IEM, outside of the mild frequency differences, what would I be getting extra with the multi-driver Supermix 4?


View attachment 423382

 

[Heinrich]

No, there is just one peak, from the resonance of the ear canal, it sits on the 711 usually at around 8kHz. No other big peak is a must and this can simply be shown by many good IEMs with smooth frequency response don't having any, on no measurment rig.

Circular argument?

To be more precise, the test rig is a tool, that has an own ‚head related transfer function‘ aka HRTF. To begin with, it is specific to the model and represents some average person.
— I don‘t know of publications that reveal the particular HRTF of a test rig, in detail unsmoothed
— the HRTF depends strongly on the incident angle of the sound, which angle to take, rest assured, we take the diffuse sound field reference
— the frequency response of measured IEM must match the chosen HRTF, in detail
— in the referenced measurements the results get compensated, but using a smoothed HRTF

Now you see where your argumentative circle lies. The truth is in the detailed HRTF, but that isn‘t used in the measurements.

EDIT: https://vbn.aau.dk/ws/portalfiles/portal/227875164/1995_M_ller_et_al_AES_Journal_c.pdf

In figure 17 you‘ll find HRTFs of real persons, largely unsmoothed. See how different they are! We expect from a HATS or other elaborated measurement rig not the very same wiggles because of individual traits. Only that the amount of peaks and dips is similar, position and Q (width), maybe number changing. Do you see that an IEM should generate these internally, because the outer ear (pinna) is circumvented, and the ear canal is closed (pipe resonance) rather than open? An IEM measuring flat is guaranteed to NOT match, another with peaks and dips may match or not. Try and error, for the time being.

And one more: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1811/1811.03389.pdf
Figures 5 and 6 for instance, it is the ‚impedance‘ though, but you know how it translates to amplitude, and how the IEM, now blocking the ear canal, interacts with that.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I am intrigued from a practical engineering POV even though after years of relying on them travelling I no longer use them.
Do the various drivers all receive the same signal and the division of the sound into frequency bands for the different drivers achieved by micro driver design,port position or size?
I don't see an electrical crossover of any reasonable performance being able to fit.

I must say as an ex-noise and vibration engineer I can see how 2 mechanically different drivers may well be cleverly integrated, or maybe 3, but more than that ???

 

[Dreamfull]

I just got back from dinner and started fiddling around with an album I love "a different kind of human - step 1" by Aurora. In half an hour I create up with this E.Q. that needs some improvement, but I'm already enjoying it a lot (the parameters are below). I like your E.Q. a little less subjectively, but you've fixed an objective problem of this IEM, as if you had removed a heavy blanket and it can finally breathe. As for Blue 2, I wouldn't trust the preliminary data too much (the past teaches us) but maybe I'm wrong.

Filter 1: ON PK Fc 20 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 1
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 20 Hz Gain 6 dB Q 0.5
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 3500 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 2
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 5000 Hz Gain 3 dB Q 8
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 6000 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 3
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 9500 Hz Gain 5 dB Q 5
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 15000 Hz Gain 7 dB Q 3

The preamp is at -11 but because I have all the profiles set the same so as to have the volumes leveled between them

Had some time to listen to the PEQ it's great, definitely its better. Mine had some peaks that made it a bit harsher on some spots, though i can feel its missing some action above 15k, like one layer its not present. Thanks for helping me out finding my taste!


Have you ever tried the Truthear Hexa?

 

[Heinrich]

Have you ever tried the Truthear Hexa?

I did. It is interesting in this context. it is decidedly based on multiple drivers, and it sports mechanical filters in the nozzle. The harmonic distortion is relatively quite high. The sound appeared to me as limited, dampened, dull even, but not from missing treble. No real contender to the Zero:2, which is a successful single DD design, and is very susceptible to equalizing also. In any way the latter feels more modern and useful.

 

[markanini]

Hexa is an IEM I prefer over other IEM I've owned at various price points. As long as the tuning and fit suits me I don't care much about what driver config it has. I doubt it's wise to give too much credit to the driver config, such as "It sounds good because it's a hybrid". If I would then that would be overgeneralizing, because there are hybrid IEMs which I don't like as much, such a Truthear Nova.

 

[Sebby]

Had some time to listen to the PEQ it's great, definitely its better. Mine had some peaks that made it a bit harsher on some spots, though i can feel its missing some action above 15k, like one layer its not present. Thanks for helping me out finding my taste!


Have you ever tried the Truthear Hexa?

With my E.Q. you feel that something is missing after 15 kHz because it should be emphasized too much, because it is too submerged. Difficult to EQ. As for Hexa, for me it had too much Hype for me and is too "mid-centric".
It resembles the new "Meta" tuning that has had the deep bass and highs cut off. I find it boring and with a shallow and wide soundstage, almost narrow.

It reminds me of an HD600 in IEM format and I, now I will be lynched, I think that HD600, HD650, HD660, etc... are terrible headphones in relation to their price because of a claustrophobic soundstage and lack of deep bass.

An audiophile headphone that does not have ALL the frequencies well developed cannot be considered audiophile. It is fine to use the E.Q. but basically it must already be complete from stock. Sorry I digress

 

[swamps]

I don't know how your ears are, but I still hear the 17,000 Hz very well and having the frequencies not only extended but well controlled for me makes all the difference in the world. Having more drivers allows you to level the frequency with much more ease and control.

I won't recommend buying an Etymotic ER4 because fit is absolutely awful but it may be interesting for you to try it out if you wanna hear good treble extension up to 17kHz. The stock treble is a little too hot for me but EQing the broad 7~10kHz dip and lowering 2~4dB past 10k is trivial. A single BA can do wonders when it's literally shoved right at your eardrum.

It reminds me of an HD600 in IEM format and I, now I will be lynched, I think that HD600, HD650, HD660, etc... are terrible headphones in relation to their price because of a claustrophobic soundstage and lack of deep bass.

I wouldn't go that far and say they are terrible, for the price there will be compromises but the competition is catching up. What I will say is "claustrophobic soundstage and lack of deep bass" are the reason why I don't own them but I digress, my IEM endgame is the ER4SR for the amazing EQ potential and great extension even if the 800Hz distortion is a bit annoying. This might be what you're looking for but the price in blood may be too much.

 

[Sebby]

I won't recommend buying an Etymotic ER4 because fit is absolutely awful but it may be interesting for you to try it out if you wanna hear good treble extension up to 17kHz. The stock treble is a little too hot for me but EQing the broad 7~10kHz dip and lowering 2~4dB past 10k is trivial. A single BA can do wonders when it's literally shoved right at your eardrum.


I wouldn't go that far and say they are terrible, for the price there will be compromises but the competition is catching up. What I will say is "claustrophobic soundstage and lack of deep bass" are the reason why I don't own them but I digress, my IEM endgame is the ER4SR for the amazing EQ potential and great extension even if the 800Hz distortion is a bit annoying. This might be what you're looking for but the price in blood may be too much.

Years ago I was interested in Etymotic, but I never managed to get a good seal with the fit with its Eartips unless I sacrificed comfort.
I managed to find a more comfortable compromise and now the Final F7200 has been keeping me company for several years (bought used in France, because the price new in my opinion was excessive) and from the photos you can see that it is turning into an antique XD. It is an Etymotic with a slightly warmer midrange (less raw details than Etymotic) but with a huge Soundstage and at first impact it reminded me of an HD800s in IEM version. The most beautiful voices or Voices + small acoustic band I have ever heard but less good in the rest due to a barely sufficient low end. Etymotic infinitely more versatile from that point of view.

As for having extended treble up to 17,000 kHz, I feel satisfied with IE600 which does everything perfectly (for my taste) up to the limits of my ear

 

[Sebby]

Gotta buy the UAPP PEQ feature to use this, since i'm storing mine on the Jcally JM12, will give it a shot later.

The other day I almost pulled the trigger on the EW300 DSP, but decided to wait just in case if Blue 2s matches its pre-prod FR, they should be released pretty soon. At some Honk Kong summit they have been already exhibitioned with full box and accessories. Taking into account that the Reds has been praised a lot and if the signature matches my taste for this price range i doubt there will be anything better. It will be a good stepping stone anyway for the next set so i can know better what i like and what i don't.

Have you tried EQing your EW300 to match the Sennheiser's or its just impossible to EQ properly so high in the FR?

Here is EW300 equalized IE200. Given that with an EQ it is difficult to have a perfect correspondence especially on frequencies > 10 kHz, as a presentation it is similar with the difference of a slightly limited Soundstage compared to IE200 and the timbre inconsistency of EW300 due to drivers of a different type (a defect of all multidrivers).
In the entire high range you have the impression that the notes lack final harmonics with a slightly colder tone. I continue to prefer IE200 even with EQ on EW300. The FR is all an IEM needs, as long as the same shell and the same Driver configuration are used, otherwise there will be differences, in fact I equalize IE200 on the FR of IE900 and they are 95% thesame.

Just for the fact that EW300 has a deeper fit than IE200 makes a difference.

 

[Heinrich]

In the entire high range you have the impression that the notes lack final harmonics with a slightly colder tone.

As for having extended treble up to 17,000 kHz, I feel satisfied with IE600 which does everything perfectly (for my taste) up to the limits of my ear

In the upper registers you might not hear harmonics, but noises, example given pluck noises from a string. They are pretty broadband each, because of which it is difficult to equalize to taste. The differences between settings are subjectively small to non existent. Otherwise people would be able to e/q every peak 'n dips pattern to their individual in-ear signature.

To target one's own 'preference' is harder than one might think. To escape to objectively good is a dead end, at least with headphones / IEMs

On topic, the amplitude frequency response is shaped by the nozzle and internal cavities. Most interesting is the mechanical impedance at the nozzle's end as it best would resemble open air, rather than a blocking end. In that sense the HEXA was of prominent importance due to its special design.

 

[Dreamfull]

Here is EW300 equalized IE200. Given that with an EQ it is difficult to have a perfect correspondence especially on frequencies > 10 kHz, as a presentation it is similar with the difference of a slightly limited Soundstage compared to IE200 and the timbre inconsistency of EW300 due to drivers of a different type (a defect of all multidrivers).
In the entire high range you have the impression that the notes lack final harmonics with a slightly colder tone. I continue to prefer IE200 even with EQ on EW300. The FR is all an IEM needs, as long as the same shell and the same Driver configuration are used, otherwise there will be differences, in fact I equalize IE200 on the FR of IE900 and they are 95% thesame.

Just for the fact that EW300 has a deeper fit than IE200 makes a difference.

You really pulled me off from Simgoot hybrid configs!

Crinacle's 5128 Graph Tool | Hangout.Audio

Compare graphs from the world's largest public database of ITU-T P.57 Type 4.3 IEM measurements, maintained by Crinacle.

graph.hangout.audio

Hangout audio posted new FR for the Blue 2 on the 5128 and it looks pretty good. There should be even a bit energy left it the high frequency since it was tested with foam tips. Throughout the whole range the IEM looks pretty compliant.

Listening 2nd day with your PEQ and I quite enjoy it, those Blue 2s with little EQ to taste might be really my endgame for IEMs.

Grazie ragazzo!

 

[Sebby]

In the upper registers you might not hear harmonics, but noises, example given pluck noises from a string. They are pretty broadband each, because of which it is difficult to equalize to taste. The differences between settings are subjectively small to non existent. Otherwise people would be able to e/q every peak 'n dips pattern to their individual in-ear signature.

To target one's own 'preference' is harder than one might think. To escape to objectively good is a dead end, at least with headphones / IEMs

On topic, the amplitude frequency response is shaped by the nozzle and internal cavities. Most interesting is the mechanical impedance at the nozzle's end as it best would resemble open air, rather than a blocking end. In that sense the HEXA was of prominent importance due to its special design.

I don't think it's that difficult actually and I think I found it, for my tastes, and it's Sennehiser IE600, even if for symphonic music the IE900 are to die for, but for 1500$ I can easily do without them and I can achieve an almost identical result by equalizing IE200. It just takes a little patience...
Then there are days when I want something different and that's fine. For example nothing will ever replace my Final E3000 when I just want to lie down and relax until I fall asleep with some classical music and they only cost 50$ in 2017: very warm sound but with a great Soundstage and I love it in that context.
By now I've found my balance with IEMs even if it can happen that you buy a pair just for pure personal whim/curiosity. The challenge is still open with Headphones, I admit.
Unfortunately with the almost perfect Harman curve (see Zero 2), I always feel like I'm listening to music through a megaphone with a small Subwoofer connected. I hate Neapolitan pizza and I love Roman pizza so I know I'm weird XD

 

[Sebby]

You really pulled me off from Simgoot hybrid configs!

Crinacle's 5128 Graph Tool | Hangout.Audio

Compare graphs from the world's largest public database of ITU-T P.57 Type 4.3 IEM measurements, maintained by Crinacle.

graph.hangout.audio

Hangout audio posted new FR for the Blue 2 on the 5128 and it looks pretty good. There should be even a bit energy left it the high frequency since it was tested with foam tips. Throughout the whole range the IEM looks pretty compliant.

Listening 2nd day with your PEQ and I quite enjoy it, those Blue 2s with little EQ to taste might be really my endgame for IEMs.

Grazie ragazzo!

Last thing: be careful with those graphs because they can be misleading and are compensated on the JM-1 curve. Putting them in overlay on the Harman curve (see photo), in my opinion Blue 2 does the opposite of what you are looking for.
At first glance it seems very screaming and closed and has that depression around 200 Hz (which I hated on Red but here it is worse) that takes away body from the timbre to give you the impression of detailed mids. It seems like an improvement in the extension of the treble compared to Red, but a Downgrade in the rest and in any case I do not see real upgrades compared to Zero2.
In the photos there is also the comparison compared to Zero2 with EQ, IE200 (there you have a real upgrade on everything but especially on the treble) and Performer 5, for example.

You will have time to think about it. For the rest I am happy if I managed to make you useful in some way.