I wouldn't mind more optimization to the point where alternatives can't compete. I'm not sure what you mean with your speaker analogy, the majority of well-measureing speakers are two-way, not single driver. For IEMs a concern with multiple DDs is added bulk which can affect fit. So adding the compact BA seems reasonable if FR goals are hard to achieve with 1DD.
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IEMs Single DD vs Multiple Drivers
- Thread starter Ste_S
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I give you the mighty big sounding but small sized Sony XBA-N3, one DD + one BA, tuned well and still one of my fav listens. Sony were utterly daft to discontinue this model
Was it me who introduced the Magnepan? Planar speakers don't play a major role today, because the dynamic driver took over for various reasons. I dislike planars altogether, because the companies using them most often use its exotics as an advertizing tool, and make me cringe.
Anyway, my explanation of the principle was to close to the topic. Take several rows of shopping carts. People take their's from and bring back the cart to the longest row. Because it is easier. Same with technological development. Once a convenient, see criteria above, solution is halfway established more effort it put into it. The effort makes the solution more attractive, bringing more effort and success to it, making it even more attractive and so forth. It doesn't mean alternatives are bad, but.
The DD in IEMs is that successful, no reasonable improvement is expected further. It is plain perfect. There is no need for 'planar' anymore. Now designers are asked to work on the internals of the IEM's shell and nozzle. The HRTF related stuff, the theory of operation if you will, was discussed before. I leave it at that as not to see any super-targets no more. No bad feelings
@Sebby wont bother you more, just one last opinion on these Kinera Celest Phoenixcall
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treblewellxtended.squig.link
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Just no. Looks like the smiley face got too much Botox.@Sebby wont bother you more, just one last opinion on these Kinera Celest Phoenixcall
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Compare hundreds of frequency response graphs between IEMs and earphones from manufacturers like Moondrop, Sony, 64 Audio, Fiio, and more.
RogerSmith
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I disagree with almost everything you say and doubt that you are very versed in the subject.
No, I don't want to use it in the first place, as it does not look at all like a good IEM. You say it has resonances that are created by purpose? Oh my god.
Haha, the IE600 is a Maserati? For me it is just an overpriced Polo.
That is what I am saying, one does not need to spend much money at all for a good IEM, when using EQ. And the Truthear Nova is almost perfect WITHOUT EQ, so absolutely no need to ever spend more than 150€.
Maybe Moondrop wanted this peak, but I don't, I EQ it away.
Headphones are a different story, there you can have soundstage and other effects,
That is what you are doing 100%
RogerSmith
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The 5128 claims to be a much better replica of the human ear canal than the 711 and thus the measurements already entail, at least to a good extend, all the individual resonances. They might shift a bit, but if a hugh peak appears in the measurement, it will for most individuals most likely also be audible.
Sebby
Active Member
If you are unsure about which IEM to buy, find one that seems to suit you and then see if it is available on Amazon which has a no questions asked return policy. I never use foam tips because yes, many times they ruin the sound, at least to my ears. Regarding the FR, once you have figured out which FR is right for you and how it relates to your ear, then it will be a good tool to consider. Unfortunately the only thing you should do in my opinion is to EQ the IEM you have and it takes a bit of time to fine tune it. Keep in mind that there are other factors to take into account and an important one is the fit. Changing the insertion depth also changes the FR of your ear due to some resonances above 7000 Hz that move when inserted deeper. Some people with the same IEM, if the shell allows it, prefer to have a small tip and deep fit and others a large tip and shallow fit. That interaction changes the FR to your ear (nothing dramatic eh), even though the FR of the IEM is identical. It can happen that you simply won't be able to have a sufficient seal or your ear will hurt after 1 minute (for me Zero RED). So in my opinion you will hardly be satisfied with the first purchase even knowing your tastes. You can narrow the field, but at the beginning you will still have to shoot "randomly" within a more or less large group.I see what you saying. I might have not been completely true to you, or maybe now after you point out those stuff, there are few things that aren't "perfect" so to speak with the PEQ on the Zero 2.
I had to cut down the 15000 Peak from 7 to 5 db, and the 9500 to from 5 to 4.5 db. Still of course missing the extension, but on quite of few songs the high can get a bit harsh. You cant really see the difference on the graph, but those slight cuts make it a bit more less sharper. It's like slight painful-pleasure to listen to, if you get me.
Blue 2 treble extension looks good, but overall the harman bump needs to be trimmed down for me and probably that dip in the 200s to be raised (which i havent tested, but by judging from your replays i think you are getting a grip of my likings). Maybe the slightly calmer air will be to my taste?
The Performer 5 looks great overall, its even on sale atm for 180$, but should i risk and blind buy it, until i'm not sure exactly where i am in the upper range? Reviews look great though.
The Hexa somehow matches pretty well the Zero's PEQ, just no bass, there is another Truthear set called Pure, which is basically Hexa 2. Feedback about it is very positive, but no idea what's its signature.
From what i can understand from you, if the FR isn't really far from your preferred taste (give or take 4-5 db) and mostly if above 10k its in your sweet spot, you can make any IEM (if the drivers allow it) to be EQ in 98% to each other, right? Maybe with silicone tips the graph would of look differently, or no? My Zero's with those Foam tips from Aliexpress sound very muffled, completely different and unenjoyable.
P.S - If the other fellow forum member doesn't take your invitation offer, i might! I love pizza (had a girlfriend which was joking me that i can eat pizza for a living
Sebby
Active Member
True. The FR that will reach your eardrum (eliminating the psychological part from the equation) has small individual variations also due to how we are used to inserting them in the ear, in fact the FR tells the truth if you have understood how your ear works in function of the FR measured on that system. There are infinite different choices on the market precisely to be able to take a different slice of the market. As for "ad personam" customization, this is what some professional companies can do on request, exactly like for the tips. If I had purchased an IE600 in Germany and not in Italy, Sennheiser offered me a service to customize the tip with the mold of my ear, so hardware customizations exist and in all sauces, but with limitations and with significant costs. Nowadays even hearing aids are performed via DSP after the first hardware customization, which is the most intelligent solution
Sebby
Active Member
Ahaha, ok
@RogerSmith, in case to are more engaged in the topic than the average Joe (sic!), you might lookup the topic of head related transfer function, HRTF. It was measured for many individuals. All are different not only to some degree, but quite different. Not only quantitatively, but qualitatively different. The HRTF changes with the angle of incidence of the sound in individual ways, and more. This shows especially in graphs that are not smoothed to much. B&K did an investigation in order to present a paper on their new model of the head and torso simulator, HATS--a must read.
In short all people have individual HRTFs, and the 5128 has an individual HRTF also, just like a human.
Question is: how to evaluate the right pinna gain, as that is circumvented by the IEM's application to the ear
Question is: how to dicriminate peaks 'n dips originating in the HRTF of the 5128 from those introduced by the IEM's faults
Question is: how to translate the interaction of the IEM with the 5128 to the interaction with other ears
This should be enough food for thought me thinks. I came to disregard the "target curves" that many guys take for gospel. This is more than just confusion. It is fallacy.
Add.: on "... if a hugh peak appears in the measurement, it will for most individuals most likely also be audible." People today have the easy handed opportunity to equalize such mishaps. Nobody does that with such peaks. Because of the excellence of modern DDs it is less of a tech problem. It is because people cannot find their optimum. Conversely, it is not that much of a problem then, right?
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Sebby
Active Member
I've never had it in my hands and since I'm not a reviewer I doubt I'll ever have it in my hands, so I can't give you an opinion about this IEM. Reading around it seems like a pretty good IEM with some winning features. From the graphs it seems very suitable for some genres and less for others, but knowing my tastes I know it wouldn't be suitable for me. After I try to equalize 2 IEMs on this curve to at least understand the flavor, but for now I agree with Jimbob54@Sebby wont bother you more, just one last opinion on these Kinera Celest Phoenixcall
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Sebby
Active Member
I agree, in fact the Target curves are reliable as long as you understand how your ear hears that particular FR, but they are not gospel in general, because that particular curve may please you but not me and not only for physiological reasons but also psychological. I myself have more than one IEM and all different, some with FR curves that apparently seem like a disaster.
Sebby
Active Member
Well, I confirm some things said previously and that is that it is not an "all-purpose" IEM for me and we enter the field of the specific IEM and despite having tried to match the FR using up to 13 bands, there remains the variable of the fit that makes the difference and the timbre inconsistency that many multidrivers have, in addition to the variable of the measurement after 10 kHz not being 100% reliable.@Sebby wont bother you more, just one last opinion on these Kinera Celest Phoenixcall
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Compare hundreds of frequency response graphs between IEMs and earphones from manufacturers like Moondrop, Sony, 64 Audio, Fiio, and more.
Having said this, with you I can use a bit of subjectivism because we have similar tastes, more or less: taking my "killer tracks" in my opinion it is not very suitable for male voices, tracks with a lot of "Loudness" or deep bass. It is not terrible but I do not hear them very natural and in general on the voices in my opinion there is a bit too much focus that works in some tracks with female voices, but loses in some male ones making some sibilants emerge that are a bit laborious and also lacking a bit of thickness in the voice itself.
It sits on a line that is sometimes crossed by tracks that have been produced with more compression than necessary, but in general it stays close to that line without straying too far like in the track "The court" by Peter Gabriel.
In general, otherwise I would make a long comment telling you track by track what I like and what I don't like, it sacrifices a bit of timbre especially of the voices in exchange for technical aspects that I think are very good, such as the soundstage and layering. It brings out many details that are in the background of the track (the details are always there if the track contains them, but some FRs are better at bringing out some things and others less because of auditory masking), the soundstage is quite wide, nicely separated and good imaging. I'll tell you, I'd be very curious to try one...
With some tracks, like those by Parov Stelar, I had a lot of fun and sometimes it almost sounds "spectacular".
Just based on the FR, would I want one as my only IEM? NO. However, if my impressions were to be reflected also with the real IEM and I had bought it with my eyes closed, I would be happy to have one to pair with the others but, having an E.Q. I would stick with Zero2 at that point, unless the experience with the IEM really turns out to be very different and positive; at which point I would buy it.
I'll give you a hint: take a good look at Meze Alba
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It is reliable, actually. Only that one doesn't know what to do with it. The IEM interacts with the ear canal. It closes it, while when hearing naturally the ear canal is open.
The nozzle and the cavity inside the IEM prolong the effective canal length. The whole arrangement of ear drum, canal, the nozzle and the IEM's cavity supports resonances at frequencies X, Y, Z. The pattern is determined by said properties in addition to the whole thing being closed.
Natural hearing involves the ear drum, the canal and the pinna, while the latter can be seen as basically open in first approximation. Giving a different pattern of X, Y, Z etc. Or, ideally wondrously a similar pattern
O/k, this is all a bit complicated. But so it is. That's the least to understand before evaluating an IEM's match to the various target curves. Smoothing, averaging are other considerations. Individual HRTFs for even the measurement rig are another one discussed above.
The measurments are perfectly reliable, the interpretation is not. Some folks fail to get it right, fixated on other than personal preference. Some times the latter doesn't exist, but an urge to stick to curves instead. The 'objectively' best stereo, approved by science ... misunderstood up to appearing grotesque.
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Thank you for taking the time! I asked about this IEM because i might get it from a guy on a decent price and reading about it, the IEM responds to EQ quite well. So fixing the lean bass and the "botox" smile doesn't look that hard, anyway ill be running it constantly with JM12/JA11 and the 5-band PEQ should be enough to tune it to taste. What the IEM does after 8k, i'll need to test in person. Probably its on my lower limit of treble extension or it might actually be on my sweetspot (hopefully).Well, I confirm some things said previously and that is that it is not an "all-purpose" IEM for me and we enter the field of the specific IEM and despite having tried to match the FR using up to 13 bands, there remains the variable of the fit that makes the difference and the timbre inconsistency that many multidrivers have, in addition to the variable of the measurement after 10 kHz not being 100% reliable.
Having said this, with you I can use a bit of subjectivism because we have similar tastes, more or less: taking my "killer tracks" in my opinion it is not very suitable for male voices, tracks with a lot of "Loudness" or deep bass. It is not terrible but I do not hear them very natural and in general on the voices in my opinion there is a bit too much focus that works in some tracks with female voices, but loses in some male ones making some sibilants emerge that are a bit laborious and also lacking a bit of thickness in the voice itself.
It sits on a line that is sometimes crossed by tracks that have been produced with more compression than necessary, but in general it stays close to that line without straying too far like in the track "The court" by Peter Gabriel.
In general, otherwise I would make a long comment telling you track by track what I like and what I don't like, it sacrifices a bit of timbre especially of the voices in exchange for technical aspects that I think are very good, such as the soundstage and layering. It brings out many details that are in the background of the track (the details are always there if the track contains them, but some FRs are better at bringing out some things and others less because of auditory masking), the soundstage is quite wide, nicely separated and good imaging. I'll tell you, I'd be very curious to try one...
With some tracks, like those by Parov Stelar, I had a lot of fun and sometimes it almost sounds "spectacular".
Just based on the FR, would I want one as my only IEM? NO. However, if my impressions were to be reflected also with the real IEM and I had bought it with my eyes closed, I would be happy to have one to pair with the others but, having an E.Q. I would stick with Zero2 at that point, unless the experience with the IEM really turns out to be very different and positive; at which point I would buy it.
P.S - Just saw the nozzle size is quite big too, I am one of those with big canals so this is another plus for good fitment.
RogerSmith
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Thanks, I do know most of the relevant literature and am in no need to be taught by you, so keep it calm, please. All people have different HRTFs and PRTFs and all headphones different HpTFs and all that. But large peaks in a measured FR cannot be desireable and might be difficult to EQ away, especially as these peaks will vary from individual to individual in size and variation, so become tedious if not impossible to EQ.
... as you say
Can't accept the hostile approach, good by.
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You Gents realize you are passionately disagreeing about a shared interest that you share, yet 99.99% of the world could care less of a crap about?... as you say
I always find it a bit sad about audio discussions online. The passion you share will drive you further apart in a microcosm no one outside of this small community gives a goddamn about. I went through this kind of crap two days ago with someone I though I respected, but in the end we drive each other apart.
InfiniteJester
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Well, people seem more interested in pizza than in transducers for IEMs in this particular microcosm.
