IEMs Single DD vs Multiple Drivers

[pablolie]

I own Shure IEMs with 1, 2 and 3 drivers ranging from $150 to $600 and can't say I hear utterly remarkable differences between them.

 

[Heinrich]

I hate Neapolitan pizza and I love Roman pizza so I know I'm weird XD

Single DD IEMs are the way to go. The industry is going to accept that the design of the nozzle's acoustical/mechanical impedance is the crucial part in designing an IEM. Nothing about multiple IEMs is worth considering, it is always an excuse.

When it comes to pizza, both Roman and Neapolitan are today way below a planetary standard. You may reissue on Mars, though.

Not the least, an extension to beyond 13kHz is dumped by some head related transfer curves, target curves anyway. And anyway a single DD would clearly serve a demand for noisy post 15kHz with ease. Only that the HRTF target doesn't want that. I lost 16kHz when I was 16, lucky (?!?) you.

 

[Heinrich]

Last thing: be careful with those graphs ...

I am. You substitute personal experience with useless graphical representations of measurements. You do not address the mental model making of that measurements. What is the reference, or even the 'compensation'? The images are used as in the advertizing.

Everybody will tell you that the measurements beyond, even, 2kHz are not representative for an individual listener. What are you doing?

 

[Sebby]

Single DD IEMs are the way to go. The industry is going to accept that the design of the nozzle's acoustical/mechanical impedance is the crucial part in designing an IEM. Nothing about multiple IEMs is worth considering, it is always an excuse.

When it comes to pizza, both Roman and Neapolitan are today way below a planetary standard. You may reissue on Mars, though.

Not the least, an extension to beyond 13kHz is dumped by some head related transfer curves, target curves anyway. And anyway a single DD would clearly serve a demand for noisy post 15kHz with ease. Only that the HRTF target doesn't want that. I lost 16kHz when I was 16, lucky (?!?) you.

I might agree about Neapolitan pizza, but not about Roman pizza.
I've traveled a lot and, as much as I love the local food of many countries (for example Germany has much more to offer than the stereotypes say and the USA is terrible and you get fat even eating vegetables), whenever you want you are my guest in Milan and then we go down to Rome in a few hours (we have speed limits but no one knows what they are, hahaha) and I take you out to eat and of course you are my guest so you leave your wallet at home.

Back to serious, I agree that in the end 1DD is the best solution (in fact my endgame is 1DD IE600), but as you rightly said, it still needs a better design of the shells and nozzles, which Sennheiser does, otherwise you lose control of the treble. I'm 35 in 2 weeks and I can hear clearly around 17 kHz and I'll enjoy it as long as my body wants to assist me.
Chinese IEMs are great IEMs but they share the same shell base, as it can be a costly component to engineer from scratch and they find it more appealing to have lots of drivers, I guess...

 

[pablolie]

I might agree about Neapolitan pizza, but not about Roman pizza.
...

Pizza is not consistent even in Italian cities. It's a myth. I like mine as thin and crispy and with minimalist ingredients as possible. I have learned to simply look around what the restaurant serves and not trust the regional label of what's supposedly "typical". I love Pizza Tonda Romana style wherever they make it. Original Napoli is good but preciously few places have that 900F oven, really.

 

[Sebby]

I am. You substitute personal experience with useless graphical representations of measurements. You do not address the mental model making of that measurements. What is the reference, or even the 'compensation'? The images are used as in the advertizing.

Everybody will tell you that the measurements beyond, even, 2kHz are not representative for an individual listener. What are you doing?

The graphs are useful and reliable. The old measurements were unreliable after the pinna gain, but the new ones are reliable even beyond 10 kHz. If you look at IE600 you will find a small depression around 6 kHz and it is wanted and modeled with the help of one of the acoustic chambers placed on the nozzle.
The "unreliability" of the measurements is due to the fact that it cannot take into account the variability of the acoustic impedance of everyone's ear after 1000 Hz, but when you understand how your ear works by testing with many IEMs and E.Q. in relation to the FR, then the graphs are reliable. I bought IE600 directly from Sennheiser without testing and I had no surprises and no regrets: it sounded exactly (95%) as I expected looking at the graphs. Going back a few comments, I did the E.Q. by Zero2 trying to understand what the other user wanted and I think I got there with a not insignificant degree of precision, at least judging from his comments, so I can at least predict which direction to go and advise even just with the graphs.
Then he is an adult and then he will do what he wants, as it should be.

 

[Sebby]

Pizza is not consistent even in Italian cities. It's a myth. I like mine as thin and crispy and with minimalist ingredients as possible. I have learned to simply look around what the restaurant serves and not trust the regional label of what's supposedly "typical". I love Pizza Tonda Romana style wherever they make it.

I love reading about outsiders explaining to a local how their cuisine is composed.

In Milan, as in Rome, as in Florence, you will find 20 different types of pizza but each with its own recognizable key characteristics. It is difficult to find a thin and crispy pizza for Italy (the one I like) because people prefer the Neapolitan one (soft and with high edges), but if you go to Rome it is very easy to find it because that is the Roman pizza.
Each chef makes it slightly differently (food is not mass produced) and there are good and less good chefs, but the basic recipe has very precise settings.

 

[pablolie]

I love reading about outsiders explaining to a restaurant how their cuisine is composed.

In Milan, as in Rome, as in Florence, you will find 20 different types of pizza but each with its own recognizable key characteristics. It is difficult to find a thin and crispy pizza for Italy (the one I like) because people prefer the Neapolitan one (soft and with high edges), but if you go to Rome it is very easy to find it because that is the Roman pizza.
Each chef makes it slightly differently (food is not mass produced) and there are good and less good chefs, but the basic recipe has very precise settings.

You can find a ton of different pizza styles in Rome. I have been there very very often. I lived in Europe for 35 years. And I have never tried to tell a chef what to do. I look at their style and decide if it's for me or not. Not every "chef" or every "restaurant" is awesome because of the zip code they are in. To claim every restaurant in Italy proudly represents the best of their cuisine is an insult. Scialla, amico.

Like I said I love a good Tonda Romana, but it's not to be had everywhere in Rome by default. And a great one is never easy to find.

 

[RogerSmith]

Single DD IEMs are the way to go.

Back to serious, I agree that in the end 1DD is the best solution

I couldn't disagree more, show my any 1DD IEM with smooth treble, even after EQ.

Also, when an Italian claims that Neapolitanian pizza isn't the best, I will doubt everything he says.

 

[Honken]

You can find a ton of different pizza styles in Rome. I have been there very very often. I lived in Europe for 35 years. And I have never tried to tell a chef what to do. I look at their style and decide if it's for me or not. Not every "chef" or every "restaurant" is awesome because of the zip code they are in. To claim every restaurant in Italy proudly represents the best of their cuisine is an insult.

Agreed, yet whenever I try to convince others that putting banana and curry on pizza like we often do locally, I get shot down. A good pizza chef can make this combination work very well. But if you were to get a ****** pizza using these ingredients in Sweden, it'd still be a ****** pizza and not representative as to why it is beloved here.

 

[Sebby]

You can find a ton of different pizza styles in Rome. I have been there very very often. I lived in Europe for 35 years. And I have never tried to tell a chef what to do. I look at their style and decide if it's for me or not. Not every "chef" or every "restaurant" is awesome because of the zip code they are in. To claim every restaurant in Italy proudly represents the best of their cuisine is an insult.

There are terrible restaurants (I think I said that) like anywhere else in the world and there are many "tourist" restaurants that are terrible, but the tourist likes pasta carbonara with cream...
If you ask for a Roman pizza especially in Rome, it will be low and crispy, without hesitation.

 

[pablolie]

There are terrible restaurants (I think I said that) like anywhere else in the world and there are many "tourist" restaurants that are terrible, but the tourist likes pasta carbonara with cream...
If you ask for a Roman pizza especially in Rome, it will be low and crispy, without hesitation.

That said I nearly cried when I saw Domino's Pizza in Rome. It is repugnant. But I heard they shut down their Italy operations. I haven't been in Rome since 2018 unfortunately.

 

[Sebby]

I couldn't disagree more, show my any 1DD IEM with smooth treble, even after EQ.

Also, when an Italian claims that Neapolitanian pizza isn't the best, I will doubt everything he says.

What do you mean by "smooth highs"?
I also have some Multi Drivers, but I found perfection (mine) with 1 DD and I am very picky about highs. Can you give me an example of an IEM that matches your taste?

 

[RogerSmith]

What do you mean by "smooth highs"?
I also have some Multi Drivers, but I found perfection (mine) with 1 DD and I am very picky about highs. Can you give me an example of an IEM that matches your taste?

I mean well extended treble without many strong peaks and resonances. The most well known examples are the Truthear Nova and the famous Moondrop Variations.

 

[pablolie]

...

Also, when an Italian claims that Neapolitanian pizza isn't the best, I will doubt everything he says.

That is silly. Your preference is fine. But leave others their choice. Just like in the US one has all these tedious discussions about who has the best BBQ or such. There are regional styles. Yet 80% of the restaurants serving the stuff are not that great. It's no different anywhere else. I proudly grew up in Barcelona but anyone that claims you can step into any tapas bar and have great food was dropped off a second floor balcony as a baby.

PS: A real Napoli pizza is even protected as cultural heritage by Unesco. But those ovens that really cook a pizza in less that 2 minutes at 900F are very rare. Anywhere. Went to a highly rated pizzeria in Napoli and I saw my pizza cooking for over 10 minutes. Not the real thing.

 

[Sebby]

That said I nearly cried when I saw Domino's Pizza in Rome. It is repugnant. But I heard they shut down their Italy operations. I haven't been in Rome since 2018 unfortunately.

Personally I didn't find Domino's Pizza terrible and here in Milan it still exists (at least until 2 years ago) but yes, it is generally not appreciated. We also have Starbucks, but in Italy it is the only one that has had to adapt to "local" tastes unlike the rest of the world, but for me it remains flavored "bidet water". It will be there as long as fashion wants it, even if inside you find more foreigners/tourists than Italians, to tell the truth...

 

[pablolie]

Personally I didn't find Domino's Pizza terrible and here in Milan it still exists (at least until 2 years ago) but yes, it is generally not appreciated. We also have Starbucks, but in Italy it is the only one that has had to adapt to "local" tastes unlike the rest of the world, but for me it remains flavored "bidet water". It will be there as long as fashion wants it, even if inside you find more foreigners/tourists than Italians, to tell the truth...

We are straying far from the IEM topic but I utterly abhor any sort of big chain pizza in the US. My GF and I still have fights over it on occasion. She even likes deep dish pizza (blasphemy and I would rather have good clam chowder in a bun).

On the IEM front -to try to justify this comment- I only use IEMs when on the move needing some noise isolation hence utter SQ honestly kind of misses the use case for me these days. I do have expensive wired IEMs but to be honest I haven't used them in years... I am all Bluetooth on the move these days. All the SQ I need and being freed of cables is awesome outside of the house. I have two pairs of Sony WF-100XM4. That's what I use. Battery life is down to 4 hours or so, so need to consider alternatives but not going back to wired when on the move.

 

[RogerSmith]

That is silly. Your preference is fine. But leave others their choice. Just like in the US one has all these tedious discussions about who has the best BBQ or such. There are regional styles. Yet 80% of the restaurants serving the stuff are not that great. It's no different anywhere else. I proudly grew up in Barcelona but anyone that claims you can step into any tapas bar and have great food was dropped off a second floor balcony as a baby.

PS: A real Napoli pizza is even protected as cultural heritage by Unesco. But those ovens that really cook a pizza in less that 2 minutes at 900F are very rare. Anywhere. Went to a highly rated pizzeria in Napoli and I saw my pizza cooking for over 10 minutes. Not the real thing.

10 minutes for a pizza is crazy, not even in England, Germany or Brazil or anywhere I lived did I ever experience such a thing, you must go to L'Antica Pizzeria da Michele in Naples, no question asked.

And get a good multidriver IEM, not a single DD full of resonances, although they came a long way and the Salnotes Zero 2 is crazy quality sound for the money, but still, there is even better.

 

[Sebby]

Also, when an Italian claims that Neapolitanian pizza isn't the best, I will doubt everything he says.

Here, Fascism ended several decades ago and therefore the freedom of self-determination, making different choices and having different tastes, is very important, which is why we have a cuisine with infinite choices and it is reflected in all other sectors (in reality they are common characteristics with the whole Mediterranean up to Spain). We are proud of our culture and we ourselves detest some aspects of it, but we are not so "closed". My invitation always remains valid

 

[pablolie]

10 minutes for a pizza is crazy, not even in England, Germany or Brazil or anywhere I lived did I ever experience such a thing, you must go to L'Antica Pizzeria da Michele in Naples, no question asked.

And get a good multidriver IEM, not a single DD full of resonances, although they came a long way and the Salnotes Zero 2 is crazy quality sound for the money, but still, there is even better.

I am pretty sure our ear channels change in shape while we are chomping down on our pizza preferences just to make my point about the limit the use case for IEMs imposes on us as well as the IEM's capabilities...

I own 3-driver Shure SE535 (the follow-up model got savaged my Amir's recent test) and honestly don't think they sound that much better than the single driver Sony WF1000-XM4 that are my walk-around go-tos these days.