How loud do you like your music?

[Holmz]

Cool. I don't think the addition of bass in music makes people turn down the volume level though, because as you already know A-weighting discounts a lot of the bass area as bass is less likely to cause hearing damage and less likely to sound loud for any given SPL vs higher frequencies.

Lack-o-bass could make people turn up the volume though?
If the music is competing with other sounds, then many of those are not bass notes, and the bass notes pretty much Morse-code they’re way along… and allow us to follow the song in a low SINAD environment, like a car window being down.

It is not clear to me that a system with more bass is played with equivalent volume to a lack-a-bass 2 way monitor.
They could be played louder or quieter.
There are A lot of variables.

In any case… I usually am in the 70-80 dB(A) as background.
85 is mostly for listening more critically.
And very occasionally in the reference area, and not for long.

 

[benanders]

• I'm interested in how loud you enjoy your music. For this purpose I propose A weighted, slow SPL measuring.
• I'm also proposing a clean, well produced song that is not bass heavy to avoid subjective impressions of low frequencies (Hey Nineteen - Steely Dan).
• Since music material varies in dB, I propose you start the SPL meter mid-song to avoid the gadget taking the silence before the song into account.
• You can put dips and peaks into the comment. In the poll, you should enter average SPL. This is one more reason why I propose a song - to avoid having additional variations due to different material.
• Sources, mastering, edition etc. shouldn't play a major role here. You should just turn it up the way you like it and then measure.
• The question is about enjoying loud music, not how much you can put up with for a short period of time. It is about SPL you'd enjoy for at least the length of an album.
• Not all smartphones are reliable, but some are. If you could just enter whether you took measures with a phone, that would be fine.
• This is about the amount of loudness you like, so imagine you live on a prairie with no neighbors. It's about what you enjoy, not what is allowed.
• Feel free to add numbers for movies and TV in the comments.

One other thing I almost forgot. It has to be at your listening position. If you're further away from the speakers, you'll need to go louder in order to get what you like at your sitting place, but I'm interested in what reaches you, what you actually hear.


**What motivated me; I've seen people throwing around numbers like 90-96dB and even higher, yet, nearing 80dB average is simply too much for me. I wanted to see the real-world numbers.

But… BUT…
dB’s being on a logarithmic scale, how do we reconcile the entry option gaps that more than double each avg listening volume?

 

[antcollinet]

But… BUT…
dB’s being on a logarithmic scale, how do we reconcile the entry option gaps that more than double each avg listening volume?

They don't. To double perceived volume you need around +10dB

 

[killdozzer]

But… BUT…
dB’s being on a logarithmic scale, how do we reconcile the entry option gaps that more than double each avg listening volume?

If I understood you correctly;
"Since music material varies in dB, I propose you start the SPL meter mid-song to avoid the gadget taking the silence before the song into account."
This is the 3hd proposal of the measuring conditions.

If I haven't, you need to explain what are "entry option gaps"?

 

[antcollinet]

If I understood you correctly;
"Since music material varies in dB, I propose you start the SPL meter mid-song to avoid the gadget taking the silence before the song into account."
This is the 3hd proposal of the measuring conditions.

If I haven't, you need to explain what are "entry option gaps"?

I think he meant the 5dB steps in your poll each represent more than a doubling in power. But as i pointed out, this is not a doubling in perceived volume.

 

[killdozzer]

I think he meant the 5dB steps in your poll each represent more than a doubling in power. But as i pointed out, this is not a doubling in perceived volume.

Ah, OK! Thank you. As you said, it's not. But also, we talked about this; since we're talking about music and the variable dB SPL, if you opt for, let's say, 80, you're in fact in the region of at least 70 to 90. This means that his 5dB increment can be within this range. If it's 78dB for him, he is still very comfortably in the 80dB average SPL. And I did use the word 'average' a lot for this reason precisely.

 

[benanders]

I think he meant the 5dB steps in your poll each represent more than a doubling in power. But as i pointed out, this is not a doubling in perceived volume.

Doh! Yes thank you @antcollinet - total misfire on my part.
Don’t reply post-haste to threads in between goGoGO work meetings being the lesson here.

I wanna get back to the overall “design” of this when I have more of a chance, though… the overall inquiry was a great idea to jump-start, @killdozzer !

 

[benanders]

Ah, OK! Thank you. As you said, it's not. But also, we talked about this; since we're talking about music and the variable dB SPL, if you opt for, let's say, 80, you're in fact in the region of at least 70 to 90. This means that his 5dB increment can be within this range. If it's 78dB for him, he is still very comfortably in the 80dB average SPL. And I did use the word 'average' a lot for this reason precisely.

Indeed…
A-weighted on top, Z-weighted on bottom. 12 minutes; 2-second further delay on end-track-pause for Z-weighted, hence the lower instant dB. Weighting and waiting matter (even on phone mic apps).

 

[ldarieut]

I have moved my genelec 8030C on my desk, and they are now roughly one meter from my head. They are connected to a DAC, which is connected to my computer.
I have to crank down to 6% volume on the computer, more than that and it is uncomfortable, I will measure tonight how much SPL it means, but I guess around 70-75dB.
I will probably move them somewhere else.

 

[antcollinet]

I have moved my genelec 8030C on my desk, and they are now roughly one meter from my head. They are connected to a DAC, which is connected to my computer.
I have to crank down to 6% volume on the computer, more than that and it is uncomfortable, I will measure tonight how much SPL it means, but I guess around 70-75dB.
I will probably move them somewhere else.

Make sure the genelec gain is set to minimum.

Might also be worth activating the "desktop 160hz -4db" switch.

 

[benanders]

Okay - had more time to catch up on this thread, so hopefully no more making egg-on-muh-face comments [today]. Some purely objective thoughts -

• I'm interested in how loud you enjoy your music. For this purpose I propose A weighted, slow SPL measuring.
• I'm also proposing a clean, well produced song that is not bass heavy to avoid subjective impressions of low frequencies (Hey Nineteen - Steely Dan).

Assigning song, album, or even genre will skew too many aspects of responses. I understand what you’re trying to do, but from an analytical standpoint it probably won’t work that way.
Myself as case in point:
Let’s assume all elements of the universe are aligning for the ideal “listening session”.
Still:
I will not enjoy playing Arthur Lyman (avg dBA 67-69) or CocoRosie (~70-73) nearly as loudly as I’ll enjoy playing Lily (78-82) or Pearl Jam (80+…)
Some OST’s, especially massive classical / electronic scores, can go louder than all the above (what can I say, good soundtracks are fun).
As was suggested, I’m talking about tunes I can enjoy at album-length (Steely Dan generally not full album-length, no offense).
If you’d suggested an Eagles song, my avg music dBA would = my avg noise floor dBA

• Since music material varies in dB, I propose you start the SPL meter mid-song to avoid the gadget taking the silence before the song into account.

There are more resilient ways to account for a “blank” outliers issue in data points.
Conversely, duration of listening could be one of your data fields. It would be interesting to know if there’s a relationship between length of “listening session” and average playback volume (dB).

• You can put dips and peaks into the comment. In the poll, you should enter average SPL. This is one more reason why I propose a song - to avoid having additional variations due to different material.

Again - one specific song (or album, or genre) is not the way to standardize the design. Put simply, people’s preferences for average listening level is not always ( or often? ) independent of music song / album / genre. If you assign these to be independent variables, you might not get meaningful results.

• Sources, mastering, edition etc. shouldn't play a major role here. You should just turn it up the way you like it and then measure.

This bullet point is in contrivance to the second bullet point. And “harsher” file / master etc. will probably not make listeners want to increase the volume to their loudest preference. It probably will make listeners want to reduce volume.

• The question is about enjoying loud music, not how much you can put up with for a short period of time. It is about SPL you'd enjoy for at least the length of an album.

It also seems to be a question about enjoying quiet music.
It won’t work to prescribe a standard song to derive average listening level (dBA), then ask for preference based on duration of a full album. This begs a level of omniscient input that people can’t reliably give about themselves.

• Not all smartphones are reliable, but some are. If you could just enter whether you took measures with a phone, that would be fine.

Zero feasibility to standardize the measuring gear in a way that would make results robust for analysis.
I wouldn’t worry about it - just accept there’s a margin of error here as wide as the horizon outside the window in your picturesque prairie music-listening home.

• This is about the amount of loudness you like, so imagine you live on a prairie with no neighbors. It's about what you enjoy, not what is allowed.

Yeah, ‘bout that - I lived in prairie habitat for some years.
No thanks. The constant wind and frequent thunderstorms made too high a noise floor.

• Feel free to add numbers for movies and TV in the comments.

HT “measurements” should skew results quite a bit. Most people listen to movies/tv with a different set of underlying criteria, so those data would be for different questions.

One other thing I almost forgot. It has to be at your listening position. If you're further away from the speakers, you'll need to go louder in order to get what you like at your sitting place, but I'm interested in what reaches you, what you actually hear.

Very good to include this reminder! That 1w / 1m speaker rule can be pervasive!

**What motivated me; I've seen people throwing around numbers like 90-96dB and even higher, yet, nearing 80dB average is simply too much for me. I wanted to see the real-world numbers.

The biggest hiccup for me is that average listening SPL will be a reality within certain albums / genres more than it’ll be among them. (To me) some music is better loud, and some quiet.
There’s no way to standardize personal preference in track / album / genre in order to balance your design for music’s sonic characters an SPL meter will be analyzing.
Listening environment (speaker quality, room quality) is also highly suspect of influencing listener tolerance thresholds (dBA), but these do not ( =cannot) factor in here. It is probably not an insignificant (though necessary) omission, unfortunately.
Gotta get at the answer(s) by asking the question(s) a little differently. And no way to make results anything but anecdotal. That’s not me suggesting anecdotes can’t be just as interesting as rigorously analyzed study results!

So all that diatribe in the rearview, this is a great topic to broach - thank you @killdozzer .

 

[killdozzer]

Okay - had more time to catch up on this thread, so hopefully no more making egg-on-muh-face comments [today]. Some purely objective thoughts -



Assigning song, album, or even genre will skew too many aspects of responses. I understand what you’re trying to do, but from an analytical standpoint it probably won’t work that way.
Myself as case in point:
Let’s assume all elements of the universe are aligning for the ideal “listening session”.
Still:
I will not enjoy playing Arthur Lyman (avg dBA 67-69) or CocoRosie (~70-73) nearly as loudly as I’ll enjoy playing Lily (78-82) or Pearl Jam (80+…)
Some OST’s, especially massive classical / electronic scores, can go louder than all the above (what can I say, good soundtracks are fun).
As was suggested, I’m talking about tunes I can enjoy at album-length (Steely Dan generally not full album-length, no offense).
If you’d suggested an Eagles song, my avg music dBA would = my avg noise floor dBA



There are more resilient ways to account for a “blank” outliers issue in data points.
Conversely, duration of listening could be one of your data fields. It would be interesting to know if there’s a relationship between length of “listening session” and average playback volume (dB).



Again - one specific song (or album, or genre) is not the way to standardize the design. Put simply, people’s preferences for average listening level is not always ( or often? ) independent of music song / album / genre. If you assign these to be independent variables, you might not get meaningful results.



This bullet point is in contrivance to the second bullet point. And “harsher” file / master etc. will probably not make listeners want to increase the volume to their loudest preference. It probably will make listeners want to reduce volume.



It also seems to be a question about enjoying quiet music.
It won’t work to prescribe a standard song to derive average listening level (dBA), then ask for preference based on duration of a full album. This begs a level of omniscient input that people can’t reliably give about themselves.



Zero feasibility to standardize the measuring gear in a way that would make results robust for analysis.
I wouldn’t worry about it - just accept there’s a margin of error here as wide as the horizon outside the window in your picturesque prairie music-listening home.



Yeah, ‘bout that - I lived in prairie habitat for some years.
No thanks. The constant wind and frequent thunderstorms made too high a noise floor.



HT “measurements” should skew results quite a bit. Most people listen to movies/tv with a different set of underlying criteria, so those data would be for different questions.



Very good to include this reminder! That 1w / 1m speaker rule can be pervasive!



The biggest hiccup for me is that average listening SPL will be a reality within certain albums / genres more than it’ll be among them. (To me) some music is better loud, and some quiet.
There’s no way to standardize personal preference in track / album / genre in order to balance your design for music’s sonic characters an SPL meter will be analyzing.
Listening environment (speaker quality, room quality) is also highly suspect of influencing listener tolerance thresholds (dBA), but these do not ( =cannot) factor in here. It is probably not an insignificant (though necessary) omission, unfortunately.
Gotta get at the answer(s) by asking the question(s) a little differently. And no way to make results anything but anecdotal. That’s not me suggesting anecdotes can’t be just as interesting as rigorously analyzed study results!

So all that diatribe in the rearview, this is a great topic to broach - thank you @killdozzer .

This is worse than your previous posts. I can only say you seem to dig for arguments (and dig deep) in an effort to come off as very smart. This usually backfires.

 

[benanders]

This is worse than your previous posts. I can only say you seem to dig for arguments (and dig deep) in an effort to come off as very smart. This usually backfires.

I’m sorry, @killdozzer - didn’t mean to unsettle you. Please know I did not intend for you to take my feedback on your choices of methodology personally.

In the same spirit, there’s no need to cast personal assumptions against me. I like your overall idea for the thread and that’s why I commented extensively. Seems it would’ve been better had I not. I’ll slowly back away now.

 

[neRok]

I increase the volume to suit the moment. If I have music on during the day whilst focussing (at work etc), then I like it quite low, but this might be a mental thing (adhd/invtro-vs-extrovert/etc problem). If I'm weeding the garden or something and listening via loudspeakers or headphones, then I want a nice audible volume regardless. But now that I'm chilling at night and focussing on the music, I don't know if I have a limit. I only have "regret" when I wake with ringing ears the next morning (but regret is just a learning experience, so it doesn't happen much anymore).

Saying that though, the sliders always keep creeping up;


Edit: Oh yer, forgot to say, didn't vote because it says "Has to be over 90dB", but that's not true. That's just where I like it when I'm really liking it.

 

[snakedctr]

Mostly 50-60 dB (A)...

 

[thewas]

Usually around 70-80 dB at the listening position but sometimes I enjoy also cranking it up

 

[killdozzer]

I increase the volume to suit the moment. If I have music on during the day whilst focussing (at work etc), then I like it quite low, but this might be a mental thing (adhd/invtro-vs-extrovert/etc problem). If I'm weeding the garden or something and listening via loudspeakers or headphones, then I want a nice audible volume regardless. But now that I'm chilling at night and focussing on the music, I don't know if I have a limit. I only have "regret" when I wake with ringing ears the next morning (but regret is just a learning experience, so it doesn't happen much anymore).

Saying that though, the sliders always keep creeping up;
View attachment 320563

Edit: Oh yer, forgot to say, didn't vote because it says "Has to be over 90dB", but that's not true. That's just where I like it when I'm really liking it.

I'll try to elicit your answer...

(although many of the things I'm about to say are already in my proposition), this is daytime, you're not doing anything, you're focused on the music and you're in for a longer than half an hour session. Nothing is bothering you, nothing is clawing on your ear-drums, the production of the album is very good, all of the neighbors are on holidays, this is just about you and your enjoyment in music. Sure, we all have different ones, but this is the SPL you prefer in this specific situation.

 

[killdozzer]

Mostly 50-60 dB (A)...


View attachment 320607

I dare say you're among the most quiet ones. Still, I really like the answer since, as I mentioned, I see many people fretting over reference levels (and it usually means as loud as live, although not always), and yet, very few users really need reference levels capabilities. I'm buying a new system now for my remote workplace and I tell you, I'm taking this into account. This helps me a lot. I see I could live with 2x40wpch into 8 if it doesn't distort even for the "hungriest" speakers.

 

[killdozzer]

Usually around 70-80 dB at the listening position but sometimes I enjoy also cranking it up

View attachment 320753

I'll have to try to get close to 90dB average if only to see what it is. It won't be any time soon since the lady above my flat got twins (although she's an angel, she keeps telling me she doesn't mind loud music and even likes it from time to time to be reminded of some oldies, but I'm not pushing my luck. I like it as it is.)

 

[tmtomh]

I'll have to try to get close to 90dB average if only to see what it is. It won't be any time soon since the lady above my flat got twins (although she's an angel, she keeps telling me she doesn't mind loud music and even likes it from time to time to be reminded of some oldies, but I'm not pushing my luck. I like it as it is.)

90dB peak is in my opinion and experience pretty loud. And 90dB average is really loud - far too loud for my tolerance (not to mention liable to cause hearing damage).