How Deep Must the Bass Be?

[computer-audiophile]

Audiophiles!!
Tweak away, tweak away . . .
I rather go down to the pub, with the lads.

Or to the concert.

This is one of the next dates we are already looking forward to. Little sub-bass noise expected:

Calendar/Schedule

Calendar/Schedule Die Dresdner Philharmonie, das Konzertorchester der sächsischen Landeshauptstadt, prägt mit ihren jährlich über 80 Konzerten das Dresdner Kulturleben.

www.dresdnerphilharmonie.de

 

[fpitas]

Audiophiles!!
Tweak away, tweak away . . .
I rather go down to the pub, with the lads.

I hate to disillusion you, but you're on a website where most of the people take their audio seriously

 

[Galliardist]

Thank you! It does indeed look to me as if you don't need a subwoofer.

The bass/mid crossover on them is 125Hz, which makes adding a sub to them awkward, I'm told - you have to cross over well below the usual 80Hz to avoid a mess. I don't have room among the furniture in our living room at the moment to add one anyway, but I do plan to try at some point in the future just for the sake of it...

 

[pablolie]

Once a month, I go here: https://yoshis.com/

Sushi and Jazz mix well. :-D

 

[GXAlan]

Can't imagine just listening to classical music....so limited.

Do you like any movies soundtracks? Classical music == Movie Soundtrack music. It’s like pop music. The genre isn’t defined by a single era, although their are classics that have stood the test of time.

I agree. One of the common mistakes is to assume that you need to have more treble to compensate for high frequency hearing loss - reality doesn't come with a treble control, after all

“However, it is noteworthy that amplification of frequencies between 1.5 and 2.5 kHz was beneficial for four of the five subjects. From the shapes of their audiograms, it might be suspected that these subjects had high-frequency dead regions starting at about 1.5 kHz. If this was the case, then the results suggest that there may be some benefit from amplification of frequencies falling a little inside a dead region.”

“All subjects had high-frequency hearing loss, but some had high-frequency dead regions and some did not”

That’s only true for dead zones. But reality does come with hearing aids and as pointed out in this paper, high frequency hearing loss isn’t all or none.

Dead Regions in the Cochlea: Diagnosis, Perceptual Consequences, and Implications for the Fitting of Hearing Aids

Hearing impairment is often associated with damage to the hair cells in the cochlea. Sometimes there may be complete loss of function of inner hair cells (IHCs) over a certain region of the cochlea; this is called a “dead region”. The ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I’m surprised @GXAlan didn't reference Umebayashi’s “The Echo Game” (House of Flying Daggers soundtrack; different than how the track sounds integrated with the film). On the right setup, it can make ears feel 9/10ths of being at a live dragon dance.*

LOL. I am not sure the bass plot of that track. If you look at the BEQ database, it looks like the movie starts to roll off at 40Hz but there is clearly real content dipping into the 20 Hz range, but at lower SPLs.

Of course, bass-enthusiasts are happy to extend the bass below 20

Taiko drums are much more about SPL than low frequency extension

NAGATA ACOUSTICS NEWS

 

[computer-audiophile]

Taiko drums are much more about SPL than low frequency extension
NAGATA ACOUSTICS NEWS

Thanks! This is of particular interest to me, as you might imagine.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Thank you! It does indeed look to me as if you don't need a subwoofer.

There are many speakers for which, in my opinion, you don't need subs.

BTW: If I think of my former Canton Ergo floorstanding speakers, these were also able to produce a powerful and deep bass without a subwoofer - they were specified at 20-40 000 Hz.

 

[Sal1950]

I am content with 40-15kHz at -3dB.
My hearing, transducers and music collection doesn't go beyond.

I understand high frequency hearing loss due to age, etc.
But what went wrong with your low end hearing?

 

[pablolie]

I understand high frequency hearing loss due to age, etc.
But what went wrong with your low end hearing?

I think it is clear we all have personal preferences when it comes to presentation - which is always going to be a compromise at the end of the day. Do we change settings for every other recording that was mixed based on different preferences? Of course we don't (maybe some do?).

My preference clearly runs towards an "acoustic" feel. I want voices and acoustic instruments to sound accurate (to me), the electronic enhancements are more like effects to me - never try to optimize my systems around that. Give me bongos or a saxophone or an acoustic bass, and I know what it should sound like... give me electronica and I have zero reference (which is why I always found it weird Daft Punk RAM is such a reference even to Stereophile reviewers). I think a key thing to keep in mind here, for everybody, is... what are your personal reference recordings that you play when you are setting up a new system or a modification to it? I have 3-4 main ones I immediately cue in.

 

[fpitas]

maybe some do?

As I recall, JRiver allows individual track EQs.

 

[Sal1950]

Yes!
Ask yourself, what does " Low frequency EFFECTS channel ...." used for??
As I said, it is good for explosions, thunders, banging on your front door (angry neighbours).

The LFE was designed to be used for movie effects, mainly only used by AV gear, and that's all great.
But whether used for movies or music, great bass extension with a 2ch or 5.2.4 like mine is HIGHLY valuable.

I hate to disillusion you, but you're on a website where most of the people take their audio seriously

Why is it that so many here don't get that?
When ever we begin to talk about going for the best possible system performance we can afford,
so many pipe up to tell us how we're mistaken ???

The bass/mid crossover on them is 125Hz, which makes adding a sub to them awkward, I'm told - you have to cross over well below the usual 80Hz to avoid a mess. I don't have room among the furniture in our living room at the moment to add one anyway, but I do plan to try at some point in the future just for the sake of it...

It could only serve to lessen demands on your mains and improve low bass distortion and extension.

BTW: If I think of my former Canton Ergo floorstanding speakers, these were also able to produce a powerful and deep bass without a subwoofer - they were specified at 20-40 000 Hz.

20hz At what SPL and level of distortion, 20%

 

[pablolie]

As I recall, JRiver allows individual track EQs.

With 70k tracks in my library, that would be a lot of work (but I love Jriver).

 

[computer-audiophile]

Well, since I've been following this thread for a while, I've been thinking about how to avoid a lack of bass at all costs if it ever comes down to it. Then I remembered my headphones, they are spec'd at 5Hz - 35kHz, so what more could you want? Thank God, I've been saved.

 

[fpitas]

With 70k tracks in my library, that would be a lot of work (but I love Jriver).

A friend uses it for DSP crossover & EQ. I think he only bothers to EQ individual tracks if the mix is pathological.

 

[computer-audiophile]

20hz At what SPL and level of distortion, 20%

I don't know, they played loud when they had to and the sound was good with a certain degree of coolness and artificiality. I like my current speakers better, but Canton now also has more advanced models, which I personally have no experience with.

 

[SMc]

Pipe organs... as far as I'm aware only one voice in the lower registers doesn't put out audible harmonics, and even then it's usually doubled with another voice that does have them.

I don't know if we have a resident organist on the forum that could clear up this matter properly.

I saw an organ demonstration in which the organist played a single note at 14 Hz and compared it to a motorboat.

The timbre of organ stops depends on the harmonic content, of course.

 

[fpitas]

This attitude appears quite common amongst older ‘audiophiles’ ( that I have met) having listened for a lifetime to small speakers with limited bass extension, perhaps because of space limitations, or perhaps having tried a larger speaker there was no way of ameliorating room gain and thus ‘boomy’ bass, I often see the reference to ‘stunt bass’ as is bass extension is somehow distasteful, an entire lifetime without hearing exactly what is on the record.
Keith

A friend had that problem until we built him big speakers that go down to 28Hz. Now he loves bass.

 

[Sal1950]

Then I remembered my headphones, they are spec'd at 5Hz - 35kHz, so what more could you want?

Deep bass is felt as much as heard, that's where headphones totally fail.

 

[Sokel]

Deep bass is felt as much as heard,

Midbass as well when done right.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Deep bass is felt as much as heard, that's where headphones totally fail.

Yes but for analytical hearing it works.

I've also had to deal with speakers that could produce really (really!) murderous sound pressure, even in the lower range. You had to worry about accidentally putting too much power into them or that a fault would occur if you stood too close to them. That was a bit scary. But these are extreme things that don't play a role in my everyday audiophile life.