As I said, I find it more interesting.
I like some depth but I'm not that particular to it. And many of my favourites don't even have much depth or not at all.
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Holographic depth soundstage and 3d impression 2025
- Thread starter Bartez2000
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As I said, I find it more interesting.
I like some depth but I'm not that particular to it. And many of my favourites don't even have much depth or not at all.
As I said, I find it more interesting.
I like some depth but I'm not that particular to it. And many of my favourites don't even have much depth or not at all.
If you mean that many recordings don’t have that much depth, I fully agree. But with a speaker set up capable of giving a convincing depth, it helps with hearing the different layerings of instruments that most music mixes contain, and that will also add to the sensation of depth and three-dimensionality in my opinion.
DSJR
Major Contributor
The wireless active Dynaudio Focus 50s I heard in a known room were incredible for a 3-D performance I remember, the far corners of a well recorded performance venue quite easily perceived. The baby stand mounted ones in this series didn't seem to do this and neither do the silly-money Confidence 60s, which I've heard with top Naim, Chord and Accuphase amps and sources to date. No idea on the small floor standers they make in this Focus series). My Harbeth SHL5s gave a smudged kind of centre image and acoustic when I played the same tracks at home (they really needed a larger room and free-er space siting to sharpen up the perceived centre image), yet my resurrected old 1974 Spendors (who knows how they 'measure' now), try very hard to give a sharp centre image on vocals and some genuine depth perspectives behind the speakers given a suitable recording and I don't think it's especially response deviations, but obviously cannot be sure.
Some amps seem to flatten said perceived image depth and some valve ones magnify it I remember from old dems I did, making 'everything' sound similar, either pushed up front (old Naim designs) or laid back as in some valve designs which in any case, were acting as equalisers as they 'tracked' the speaker impedance curve.
As long as the speaker isn't totally hobbled in fundamental design, I always preferred the active versions if available (I'll pass on the Linn Kaber though, as this had terrible shortcomings, at least initially), as the sense of 'fog' or sonic 'clutter' that pervades so many passive models, seems to be much improved if the drivers are well enough behaved and the active crossovers at least halfway decently designed. Not sure I ever really heard it in the simplest-crossover designed models either, as odd things happen when you stand or sit (B&Ws even in better days could be awful for this I remember).
Some amps seem to flatten said perceived image depth and some valve ones magnify it I remember from old dems I did, making 'everything' sound similar, either pushed up front (old Naim designs) or laid back as in some valve designs which in any case, were acting as equalisers as they 'tracked' the speaker impedance curve.
As long as the speaker isn't totally hobbled in fundamental design, I always preferred the active versions if available (I'll pass on the Linn Kaber though, as this had terrible shortcomings, at least initially), as the sense of 'fog' or sonic 'clutter' that pervades so many passive models, seems to be much improved if the drivers are well enough behaved and the active crossovers at least halfway decently designed. Not sure I ever really heard it in the simplest-crossover designed models either, as odd things happen when you stand or sit (B&Ws even in better days could be awful for this I remember).
Yes, I mean recordings. I was a bit vague there. I do soundwork myself so I'm familiar what's in the recordings.
Speakers do some layering of their own depending on the placement and if we go to SHL5 + 300B combo I mentioned it may become quite surreal sometimes.
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The sense of depth is the whole point of having two speakers in a STEREOPHONIC setup with STEREOPHONIC recordings. Stereo comes from the Greek for "solid". So stereophonic was named to describe the expectation of solid sound in depth as well as width. The simplest stereophonic recordings come from two microphones side by side or crossed, capturing a sound aource in a space. The difference in phase and intensity level allows the microphones to capture the left or right locus as well as the distance locus, including the venue reverberations.
Any stereophonic domestic playback system must be able to recreate this depth and width effect - if it cannot, it is flawed. The most likely flaws (now we have such neutral, high resolution digital sources) are speaker-room interactions (including speaker location).
Any stereophonic domestic playback system must be able to recreate this depth and width effect - if it cannot, it is flawed. The most likely flaws (now we have such neutral, high resolution digital sources) are speaker-room interactions (including speaker location).
I have a fairly simple set of 3-way speakers, actually three pairs (two Korean and one Japanese), which I rotate from time to time. One pair has a bit more bass, while all three pairs offer quite good mids and highs. All three pairs are suitable for listening to classical music, jazz, pop, and even hard rock. I know the speakers are about 2.5m in front of me, and they are usually positioned on the sideboard under the TV, separated by about 2m from each other. My workspace is not exactly in any "sweet spot," but much further away and not centrally located. My computer monitor actually obscures the speakers from view.
I hear the sound from them above the monitor (my ears are roughly at half the height of the monitor) and all around the room in front of me, sometimes even beyond the distance to that wall. If I move in my chair (which is on rollers), the sound shifts with me. If I walk around, it also follows me. I don't perceive the speakers as physical objects that emit sound; the sound is simply there.
I hear the sound from them above the monitor (my ears are roughly at half the height of the monitor) and all around the room in front of me, sometimes even beyond the distance to that wall. If I move in my chair (which is on rollers), the sound shifts with me. If I walk around, it also follows me. I don't perceive the speakers as physical objects that emit sound; the sound is simply there.
Just listened to this one and the next one after that through my fairly simple Korean speakers, and without looking at the videos. I can feel the atmosphere, meaning those fairly simple speakers are quite alright!
By the way, they have side-firing LF speakers and are positioned just 5cm from the wall, with a bass-reflex port at the back.
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Sokel
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I don't remember to whom I must give credit for this as I saw it here but if you want true depth recording the The New Four Seasons - Vivaldi Recomposed is a great example.
(don't expect true classical here,it's too emotional and cinematic in a way but Elena Urioste gives a true master performance,take my word for it)
(don't expect true classical here,it's too emotional and cinematic in a way but Elena Urioste gives a true master performance,take my word for it)
HalSF
Active Member
It’s surprising that this thread, pleasantly meandering and anecdotal as it is, has not yet mentioned the research of Edgar Choueiri at the Princeton 3D3A Lab and the BACCH-dSP components and software based on his work available via Theoetica Applied Physics, which has been energetically discussed in various threads here.
3d3a.princeton.edu
www.theoretica.us
His results involve serious science, not serendipitous, accidental, or improvised results with standard hi-fi setups. I had a chance to experience his demo some years back at Princeton and it left even the most beguiling spatial effects I’ve heard in stereo and surround systems far, far behind.
The 3D3A Lab at Princeton University
BACCH-dSP | Theoretica Applied Physics
www.theoretica.us
His results involve serious science, not serendipitous, accidental, or improvised results with standard hi-fi setups. I had a chance to experience his demo some years back at Princeton and it left even the most beguiling spatial effects I’ve heard in stereo and surround systems far, far behind.
With my system, The Four Seasons recording is very large both in depth and width.
I followed your second link but only come to the first page of that website, was it any particular recording or video with Elena you were thinking of?
It’s surprising that this thread, pleasantly meandering and anecdotal as it is, has not yet mentioned the research of Edgar Choueiri at the Princeton 3D3A Lab and the BACCH-dSP components and software based on his work available via Theoetica Applied Physics, which has been energetically discussed in various threads here.
The 3D3A Lab at Princeton University
BACCH-dSP | Theoretica Applied Physics
His results involve serious science, not serendipitous, accidental, or improvised results with standard hi-fi setups. I had a chance to experience his demo some years back at Princeton and it left even the most beguiling spatial effects I’ve heard in stereo and surround systems far, far behind.
If Bacch had been a solution that worked for all types of audio productions, I would have considered mentioning it. As it is, most audio productions out there contain sound elements that are dependent on crosstalk to sound right.
Sokel
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You're right but it's not a video,it's an interview about her work at this play down the page:
Back to the future | Maestro Arts
HalSF
Active Member
Thank you for your perspective on my post. I simply thought it was relevant to the subject of holographic depth soundstage and 3D audio, and perhaps a reference point in a discussion that seems mostly centered on ad hoc speaker choice and room setup, and arguably much less on systematic and measurable/repeatable approaches to creating dramatic “holographic” soundstage audio effects.
The OP began the thread by mentioning an impression that the topic has been an object of ridicule on this forum, and that’s probably true to the extent that audiophiles love to attribute the ability to create mind blowing soundstage effect to stuff like interconnects and speaker wire and amplifiers and literally anything viewed as super-fancy and high end. That’s not happening here, but I’m sensing perhaps a little bit of that magic mindset in the capabilities attributed to specific speaker models in this thread, but I could easily be wrong.
If there is a holographic soundstage or whatever, it is the result of what the audio engineer did in the studio when preparing the recording for processing. What we hear is what that person decided, not necessarily what we think we should hear, whether it is from a vinyl, CD, USB, or a YouTube video. The one mentioned above was carefully processed by their team at the recording studio. It is not what you would have heard at that concert in Italy.
I think the point of this thread is the opposite but it's just a bit hard to quantify.
Some speakers are very good and very neutral but don't do "holography" or "envelopment" worth extra mentioning. With these speakers we hear what the engineer intended, or at least very close. And we hear engineered over the top spatial effects just fine.
Some speakers have extra, I'm talking about the really tangible feel, a sonic image you feel you can almost touch. I call (only) that holography and it most certainly is not an effect in the recording. This quality comes without any engineering intention or processing. I mean, with certain speakers I can have holography with Graveland - Thousand Swords so it's not a hifi thing.
As I mentioned before I think it's a combination of good qualities and faults. It's not what the engineer heard and intended. That's one reason the descriptions are anecdotal and a bit magical.
If they have something "extra," then those speakers are not good, for they are not doing what they are supposed to do.
There is a school of thought that says, "reproduce exactly what the engineers heard".
There is another school of thought that says, "reproduce the closest approach to experiencing a live performance."
Those two approaches end up being similar in most ways, but sometimes they diverge a bit.
But how can the speaker manufacturer know what the audio engineer would do in their studio, or what the performer would want the audio engineer to process?
Hi,
you gear oriented fools It's not only about the gear, nor an accident, but very much also the auditory system and you as an active component of the whole audio chain that makes a perception. You can actually affect it and seek it, make sure it happens!
Anything in the playback system can prevent such holographic sound from happening, most likely multiple things combined, but the last and most important piece that makes or breaks it is your auditory system, regardless of the gear. Perception of sound, such as what can be described a holography, is not directly the sound what enters your ear, but an end result what your own auditory system provides to you to perceive.
I got the holographic sound as I understand it on my system, but only when I'm within particular distance from the speakers. If I physically move myself, start back out staying equidistant to both speakers, the holography disappears at particular distance to speakers. The room acoustics and the speakers and all the gear stays the same*, only thing that changes is moving myself. If you don't have it in yours, move yourself closer!
Pretty much everyone here arguing with Barteez has mentioned that 'speaker placement' -- and by extension , the geometric relationship of speaker to listener -- is crucial.
So who are you trying to enlighten?
Yes, listen in the near field, speakers toed in, if you want to increase your chance of 'holography'.
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