Can speakers be too big for a room?

[LSPhil]

It’s not a problem to use very largespeakers in small rooms. The speaker you showed has three bassdrivers with a combined membrane area of about 450 cm². If theyreach very low frequencies, for example down to 40 Hz, they willexcite all the room resonances, which can boost the sound by up to+10 dB. This makes the bass overwhelming, and you’ll need to adjustthe equalization to enjoy the music playback properly.

Recently, I was out and came across ahi-fi store with interesting speakers that looked almost like yours.I asked the seller to demonstrate them for me. He warned me that theymight be too big for the room. Indeed, the bass was unbearable atfirst. I went over to the amplifier, turned the bass control knobcounterclockwise to the 9 o’clock position, and suddenly thespeakers sounded normal with excellent bass reproduction. Why isthat?

Bass drivers need heavy membranes,which means they transfer a lot of energy into the room. This excitesroom resonances significantly. What’s the benefit of heavymembranes? After equalization, they sound very mature, as if the drumkit were right there in your home. In simple terms, they deliver moreenergy into the room, and that’s a lot of fun.

 

[Jim Taylor]

One of the loudspeakers that I really liked, but ended up rejecting was one that I could not place closer than 8 feet, because it took an 8 foot distance in order for the sound to coherent properly.

One of the advantages of the 511B Altec horns was that they could be tilted so as to be aimed directly at the listener. It was amazing how good those Altec systems sounded at close distances once they were adjusted.

Here you can see the pivot lugs and the adjustment bar.

 

[DanielT]

Hi, We are definitely on the same page concerning listening distances of multiple driver speakers, when different driver sections are producing different passbands.
Like a low, mid, high type speaker.

The line array above though, which uses a single line of the small cones shown (and maybe a line of smaller tweeters, can't tell from pict....)
CAN be listened to closer than one would think, and with proper phase summation.
Line arrays work different, at least within the frequency range where they perform as true line arrays. It's one of their cool properties.
I've done it / experienced it, so not just talking theory

Regarding the line array in the picture. I actually don't know. It was just a picture I took at random.

Now I got curious. What kind of line arrays did you have? How close could you have them placed and despite the short distance think it worked well, sounded good?

Speaking of line array and point source speakers. ASR's own, most diligent DIY ppataki has gone from building line arrays:

Murphy's Corner Line Array project

One more thing ppataki... for your own sanity. Get an SPL meter. It doesn't have to be expensive. Once you get distortion low enough, it's very easy to play (go) louder than you realize. You'll only notice it if you want to start a conversation ;). To avoid that, I use JRiver as my mediaplayer...

audiosciencereview.com

..to point sources:

Sphere shaped speakers with CHN110 drivers

Inspiring.:D Also in this thread, speakers were built with Ikea Blanda Matt bamboo salad bowls. I think you got inspiration from that thread: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sphere-shaped-speakers.49807/ You can also build a classic two-way speaker with a sphere shape...

audiosciencereview.com

Why this is the case for @ppataki I don't know. Other than he likes point sources more of course.

 

[ppataki]

Why this is the case for @ppataki I don't know. Other than he likes point sources more of course.

@DanielT
Yes, that was the main reason
Line source and point source sound totally different when it comes to sound stage (at least in my room that was the case)
Point source creates a holographic sound stage, 'projecting' instruments into the room. This is the 'live' sound that people who fancy point source speakers always refer to
But it is a one-man show that can be enjoyed only in the very narrow sweet-spot

On the other hand line source fills the entire room with sound, no matter where you stand, sit or even lie in the room, you will hear almost the same sound (except for the bass of course).
With line source SPL degrades by 3dB / meter only (instead of 6dB / meter) hence they are very often used in PA systems too

One more thing I observed with my MCLA was that highs rolled off extremely fast, starting already from 4kHz.... this might have been attributable to the drivers I chose (Dayton ND91-8), I am not sure but nevertheless it was indeed an issue for me...

So I abandoned the the line source concept and went (back) to point source and I have stayed there ever-since (the only difference is that I am now playing with coaxial drivers instead of full range drivers, you can see those projects too if you search for threads created by me in the DIY section)

 

[krabapple]

In my case I use a Denon AVR, so I can only use the builtin Audyssey calibration. But a lot of the options are left to the user.

If you are experiencing modal bass peaks at your listening position because of your speakers/subs and their placement in your room, Audyssey (like most any room DSP) will try to bring them down.

Which is what you want to happen.

 

[MattHooper]

Point source creates a holographic sound stage, 'projecting' instruments into the room. This is the 'live' sound that people who fancy point source speakers always refer to
But it is a one-man show that can be enjoyed only in the very narrow sweet-spot

On the other hand line source fills the entire room with sound, no matter where you stand, sit or even lie in the room, you will hear almost the same sound (except for the bass of course).

I always thought it was something of the opposite. The points source type speakers that I have owned where the ones that for the best off axis listening.

The line source speakers that I have experienced have tended to require the person to be in the sweet spot, otherwise the image tended to shift into one speaker more readily.

But I think most of the lines source speakers I’ve experienced have been electrostatics or have used ribbons, so perhaps that’s the source of the difference.

 

[DanielT]

Hi there!

Given I saw opposite opinions on various websites, I wanted to a question here regarding speakers vs room size.

For instance, let's say we have a 20 m² (so 65 foot) room. And we put some big speakers, like Triangle's Australe EZ in it (pictures below). 5 front baffles + 1 tweeter on the back. 20 (w) x 37 (d) x 113 (h) cm. A big chunky boy. Or another big speaker, like Focal's Evo X N°4 for instance.

And let's say speakers are like 2m apart and you're 2m away from the speakers. My question is:

Would these speakers be too big for the room?

Obviously not aesthetically, but in terms of "would the sound be worse than in a bigger room?"
Especially if you're listening at low ~ moderate volume.

Very curious to hear your opinions about this!

View attachment 436589View attachment 436591

It's a three-way speaker. Works ok in a smaller room BUT keep in mind that they also have a rear-firing tweeter. It's a matter of taste if you like that type of design/sound. The type of dispersion of the higher frequencies that this design entails, that is.

That design is discussed in this thread:

Backwards directed , rear-firing tweeter, Snell Type E / III?

Anyone have experience with such speakers? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Grateful for response. Snell Type E / III, just to show an example of what I mean:

audiosciencereview.com

Otherwise. FR doesn't look that good:

TRIANGLE Esprit Australe EZ

Triangle to firma francuska, a słowo Esprit pochodzi właśnie z języka francuskiego - przebogatego i wyrafinowanego. Znajdujemy wiele znaczeń ...

audio.com.pl

 

[gnarly]

I always thought it was something of the opposite. The points source type speakers that I have owned where the ones that for the best off axis listening.

The line source speakers that I have experienced have tended to require the person to be in the sweet spot, otherwise the image tended to shift into one speaker more readily.

But I think most of the lines source speakers I’ve experienced have been electrostatics or have used ribbons, so perhaps that’s the source of the difference.

A Narrow line source has good uniform horizontal coverage. That's why they are popular with live sound.
Our domestic "line sources" like electrostats or planars or planar ribbons, are wide and often flatter than we wish.....and due to that have a horizontal coverage pattern that focuses to vertical line position.
It's why stats like quad, Martin Logan CLS, etc, have tried to curve the horizontal plane... to avoid the horiz beaming.
A perfectly thin vertical line would be ideal...along with an accompanying unicorn

 

[gnarly]

Now I got curious. What kind of line arrays did you have? How close could you have them placed and despite the short distance think it worked well, sounded good?

I have the same type corner line-arrays as @ppataki. Twenty-four 3.5" drivers made for corner array.
Mine also convert to a CBT array.
I think 6ft listening distance would work well.
I also found I have a preference for point source, but it has nothing to do with listening distance of radiation patterns. It's imply about the inability of 3.5" drivers to produce VHF energy summations, and also for me...to produce enough bass...displacement is not there for me.

I do think the lines would make truly excellent rear channels etc.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Mostly related to listening distance. Multiple drivers need some distance to blend the wavefront.

With DSP in an active system with each driver assigned its own channel of processing, the drivers can be time-corrected to blend optimally at any listening distance required. That's how my DIY dipoles (open baffle) 3-ways with 7 drivers each work. The Wilson Audio Chronosonic achieves the same result through finely adjustable mechanical driver offset.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

If you can use DSP on the room nodes, and you can get the proper distance for the drivers to blend together AND there are no major directivity errors so room reflections realistically mirror the direct sound coming from the drivers, then you can probably have as large a set of speakers in the room as your heart desires.

But the room also has to be able to withstand the higher output of the larger speakers without rattling and shaking like the space aliens are coming for the little kid in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

If you can use DSP on the room nodes, and you can get the proper distance for the drivers to blend together AND there are no major directivity errors so room reflections realistically mirror the direct sound coming from the drivers, then you can probably have as large a set of speakers in the room as your heart desires.

But the room also has to be able to withstand the higher output of the larger speakers without rattling and shaking like the space aliens are coming for the little kid in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.


View attachment 436830

...as I have discovered the hard way, regarding bass output on a few movie soundtracks. It's seldom an issue, but I did have to stop things in the room from buzzing. It's sort of like how a noise in the car is seldom actually part of the car, but rather a foreign object bouncing around. A subwoofer or two can cause issues, for that matter.

 

[Soniclife]

I have a 15’ x 13’ room (though with a large room opening to a hall). I’ve had speakers of all different sizes in there, tons of floorstanding speakers, including some that went strong down to 25 Hz, and they have all sounded terrific.

I’ve also had plenty of stand mounted speakers, but I always go back to floorstanding speakers in my room because they provide the scale of sound and ease in terms of dynamics and power that I can’t get from the stand mounted.

My room is only fractionally larger than yours, without a large opening, but my experience is the opposite, very few speakers seem to work in it, including speakers I've liked in dealers dem rooms.

I've put speakers into a small room and found the bottom end overwhelming, not just the very lows, but DSP can fix that.

 

[MattHooper]

My room is only fractionally larger than yours, without a large opening, but my experience is the opposite, very few speakers seem to work in it, including speakers I've liked in dealers dem rooms.

I've put speakers into a small room and found the bottom end overwhelming, not just the very lows, but DSP can fix that.

I think the general shape of my room and that large room opening is doing some work for me. Though the room was renovated around 2009 with help from a professional acoustician so it sounds really good, even before the renovation I found large loudspeakers still worked quite well in the room.

 

[boxerfan88]

And let's say speakers are like 2m apart and you're 2m away from the speakers. My question is:

Would these speakers be too big for the room?

Nope, not at all.

Your chosen large speaker has 3 woofers, therefore should go down pretty low. You’ll need some EQ to tame the room modes and maybe even out the bass, and you’re all good.

 

[Martin]

I'd vote no. I used to have a pair of Paradigm Studio 100's in a typical suburban bedroom about 11' x 11'. They sounded wonderful. The speakers and the listening chair were in about a 6' equilateral triangle. (Ignore some of what you see in this photo; I was still an audiophool at the time.)

Martin