Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

[johny_2000]

and the Monolith headphones How are they assembled?

I don't know. I have never owned Monolith headphones.

 

[radix]

Are there any reasons to buy Sundara now?
They've lowered the price over the years (2017-2024) and now cost $299 new / $199 refurb.
But from a technical driver configuration perspective, they seem outdated to me compared to more recent planar headphones.

Mine still sound as good as when they were not outdated. I also use EQ on them, which I think helps a fair bit.

You should really listen to them and the planar's you're interested in and see what you like. How headphones fit and feel is important too.

 

[johny_2000]

You should really listen to them and the planar's you're interested in and see what you like. How headphones fit and feel is important too.

Thank you! So far I've listened to the FiiO FT5 and Moondrop Para planar headphones, which seem to be later models than the Sundara.

The FiiO had a comfortable fit and a self-adjusting suspension headband. Compared to the Moondrop which had a terrible fit. Unfortunately, both had quality issues. That's why I returned them.

 

[radix]

Thank you! So far I've listened to the FiiO FT5 and Moondrop Para planar headphones, which seem to be later models than the Sundara.

The FiiO had a comfortable fit and a self-adjusting suspension headband. Compared to the Moondrop which had a terrible fit. Unfortunately, both had quality issues. That's why I returned them.

I have the sundara, the dca aeon 2 noire, DT 770 Pro (250R), and sony 1000xm5 (noise cancelling for travel). So, I have an open-back, closed-back, and noise cancelling. Plus the DT770 are some utility cans for use other places than my desktop.

I find the sundara very comfortable. They have super large circular ear pads and a pretty firm strap adjust with detents, so it stays in place. The dca noire is a tighter fit around the ear, so is a bit more placement sensitive, but it's closed so that likely helps keep the noise out better. The strap adjust on the noire is a bit loose when not under pressure being on the head, so I usually need to adjust it every time I put them on. The sony are very nice too for a noise cancelling. The DT 770 are pretty comfortable too, but not the same class as the others.

I use EQ on my RME ADI-2 Pro or in SoundSource for the sundara and aeon2 noire (I'd EQ the DT770 too if I used them there). Nothing major, but it is better sounding to me.

You can't EQ fit and comfort, so find a decent pair that fits well, then you can likely EQ them to taste, assuming they are reasonable close. At least that's my approach.

 

[johny_2000]

Today I got another planar headphones - DROP+DCA AEON OPEN X. The fit on the head is better than the Moondrop Para, but worse than the FiiO FT5, which had a self-adjusting headband and soft-fitting round velor ear pads. Out of the box they are too warm in the mid freqs and too weak in the sub-bass and high freqs. That is, a sort of “neutral” sound that is too boring for me. I started EQing them to my liking using RME or Equilizer APO+Peace. I added several AutoEQ compensations to the Harman 2018 curve and applied them, but it was still too veiled in the high freqs. I wonder if the default "white 1-notch" inserts are too dense and too damping? There are three different sets of inserts in the box that might be worth trying.

 

[pallas]

Bought the Sundara (2022) some time ago and I'm using it with a Qudelix 5K with PEQ (balanced Tripowin cable) in connection with USB Audio Player Pro on an Android phone.
Very happy with this set up, though I sometimes have the feeling it sounds a tiny, tiny bit "artificial".
I have tried many PEQ settings an found this one to be the most pleasing to my ears.

Preamp: -11.0 dB Filter
1: ON LSQ Fc 28 Hz Gain 6.00 dB Q 0.71 Filter
2: ON PK Fc 66 Hz Gain -0.80 dB Q 1.50 Filter
3: ON LSQ Fc 105 Hz Gain 5.50 dB Q 0.71 Filter
4: ON PK Fc 940 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 3.70 Filter
5: ON PK Fc 2250 Hz Gain 3.30 dB Q 1.40 Filter
6: ON PK Fc 6105 Hz Gain 2.2 dB Q 1.50 Filter
7: ON PK Fc 10000 Hz Gain -3.0 dB Q 4.00 Filter
8: ON HSQ Fc 10000 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 0.71

I will have now the opportunity to get a used RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AK4493) and was wondering how to convert the above 8-band setting to the 5-band PEQ of the RME ADI-2.

 

[staticV3]

Bought the Sundara (2022) some time ago and I'm using it with a Qudelix 5K with PEQ (balanced Tripowin cable) in connection with USB Audio Player Pro on an Android phone.
Very happy with this set up, though I sometimes have the feeling it sounds a tiny, tiny bit "artificial".
I have tried many PEQ settings an found this one to be the most pleasing to my ears.

Preamp: -11.0 dB Filter
1: ON LSQ Fc 28 Hz Gain 6.00 dB Q 0.71 Filter
2: ON PK Fc 66 Hz Gain -0.80 dB Q 1.50 Filter
3: ON LSQ Fc 105 Hz Gain 5.50 dB Q 0.71 Filter
4: ON PK Fc 940 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 3.70 Filter
5: ON PK Fc 2250 Hz Gain 3.30 dB Q 1.40 Filter
6: ON PK Fc 6105 Hz Gain 2.2 dB Q 1.50 Filter
7: ON PK Fc 10000 Hz Gain -3.0 dB Q 4.00 Filter
8: ON HSQ Fc 10000 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 0.71

That preset appears to peak at 0.5dB gain, which can cause digital clipping:


I'd advise to reduce the preamp to -11.6dB.

I will have now the opportunity to get a used RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AK4493) and was wondering how to convert the above 8-band setting to the 5-band PEQ of the RME ADI-2.

Somewhat tricky do so, since the RME has quite complicated PEQ constraints, which you can read on page 14+15 here: https://rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2remote_e.pdf

On that note, I'd advise you to update your ADI-2's firmware and use the Remote 2.0 Application to import your EQ presets. It's way more convenient than doing it with the knob.

Finally, here's the best RME conversion of your preset that I could work out:


Note that the first Parametric EQ band was changed to a Low Shelf type.

 

[pallas]

Thank you for the conversion of the EQ.

Somewhat tricky do so, since the RME has quite complicated PEQ constraints, which you can read on page 14+15 here: https://rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2remote_e.pdf

Tricky? Is it because the bands 2, 3 and 4 seem to be set to peak and only on band 1 and 5 there are selectable filter types?

 

[staticV3]

Tricky? Is it because the bands 2, 3 and 4 seem to be set to peak and only on band 1 and 5 there are selectable filter types?

Band 1&5 can be PK, HS, or LS
Band 2-4 can only be PK
Band 6 can only be HS
Band 7 can only be LS

Gain can be set between -12dB and +12dB, but only in 0.5dB steps

Frequency is 20-20k for Band 1-3, 200-20k for Band 4-5, 20-150 for Band 6, and 3k-10k for Band 7

Q can be 0.5-9.9 for Band 1-3, 0.5-5.0 for Band 4-5, and 0.5-1.5 for Band 6-7. And it can only be set in 0.1 steps.

All of this complicates the PEQ design, compared to more conventional PEQs where you can do whatever you want with each band.

 

[pallas]

All of this complicates the PEQ design, compared to more conventional PEQs where you can do whatever you want with each band.

Now I get it, I didn't read the manual carefully enough.
It is indeed a bit strange and complicated.
But there are not many other options for a DAC with PEQ beside the Qudelix 5K and the RME ADI-2...

I use EQ on my RME ADI-2 Pro or in SoundSource for the sundara and aeon2 noire (I'd EQ the DT770 too if I used them there). Nothing major, but it is better sounding to me.

Was wondering what settings you use for the Sundara... Would you mind sharing them?

 

[staticV3]

But there are not many other options for a DAC with PEQ beside the Qudelix 5K and the RME ADI-2...

There's a new kid on the block: Topping D50III

 

[pallas]

That's true about the Topping D50III.
I was a little vague. I meant a DAC, with PEQ and high end headphone amp all in one.

 

[scolfaro]

Hi guys, first time posting. I am an audio professional, have a Neumann setup (with the DSP subwoofer) connected digitally to a Fireface and ADI-2 and linearized in phase in a well treated room (guess where a lot of my investment over the years producing went...).

I also own a Sundara (and a bunch of other headphones) since before we had our studio (I was renting a space that wasn't ideal, but had one "ideal" room). Over the past years the comparison I always did was Sundara with Sienna (Acustica's correction always felt good) versus whichever room I was in, and there was always a phase in production in which I switched between monitors and headphones, closer to the end.

With my room, I noticed I am not really "gaining" that much in perspective since my monitoring setup is pretty good, with the exception of removing a couple potential SBIRs from my desk and other things that happen in a room. So I am left browing incessantly, before I deliver the next recordings. Here are my ramblings:

1) I noticed Amir's correction is definitely in the right direction, although I tweaked it a touch in RME's TotalMix, and that seems to be a step forward from Acustica's correction, so that is an improvement;

2) What would be the next step up (without going to €1k or more range, because I would buy mixing/mastering hardware instead...) to the Sundara in terms of resolution and distortion, that gets as close as it gets to the Harman target with 3 (THREE) Eq points?

*** The Eq constraint, and this is coming from a work perspective, is because the more notches and the closer together they are, phase shifts and all, the higher the chance that I will actually hear the filter (because that's my job...) and be thrown off course. And this is also why I hate Sonarworks, I can hear its phase smearing and shifting and it's horrible, plus its targets are definitely wack.

 

[solderdude]

Hi guys, first time posting. I am an audio professional, have a Neumann setup (with the DSP subwoofer) connected digitally to a Fireface and ADI-2 and linearized in phase in a well treated room (guess where a lot of my investment over the years producing went...).

I also own a Sundara (and a bunch of other headphones) since before we had our studio (I was renting a space that wasn't ideal, but had one "ideal" room). Over the past years the comparison I always did was Sundara with Sienna (Acustica's correction always felt good) versus whichever room I was in, and there was always a phase in production in which I switched between monitors and headphones, closer to the end.

With my room, I noticed I am not really "gaining" that much in perspective since my monitoring setup is pretty good, with the exception of removing a couple potential SBIRs from my desk and other things that happen in a room. So I am left browing incessantly, before I deliver the next recordings. Here are my ramblings:

1) I noticed Amir's correction is definitely in the right direction, although I tweaked it a touch in RME's TotalMix, and that seems to be a step forward from Acustica's correction, so that is an improvement;

2) What would be the next step up (without going to €1k or more range, because I would buy mixing/mastering hardware instead...) to the Sundara in terms of resolution and distortion, that gets as close as it gets to the Harman target with 3 (THREE) Eq points?

*** The Eq constraint, and this is coming from a work perspective, is because the more notches and the closer together they are, phase shifts and all, the higher the chance that I will actually hear the filter (because that's my job...) and be thrown off course. And this is also why I hate Sonarworks, I can hear its phase smearing and shifting and it's horrible, plus its targets are definitely wack.

Here's my take on it:
When Sundara works for you (comfortable and know its limits and EQ them anyway) I see no need to use other headphones. Just make sure you have some spare pads lying around as pad wear changes tonality.

On EQ... 3 band EQ is all that is needed. There is no need (nor advisable) to use more bands to EQ with 'more precision' to someone's measurement of a copy of said headphone on a certain fixture under certain test conditions. The EQ derived from that will ONLY be exact on that fixture, with that particular mounting(s) and I can guarantee you that test fixtures differ from your ears.
So... A Sundara needs to be compensated in the lows to get them to conform to Harman target (but also to taste/your tonal balance in your studio).
The upper midrange dip has to be compensated... again, this is partly personal so here too one can use a 'starting point' and adjust to your hearing/monitors.
Then you need to lower the treble peak (which they have but are in an area where standard test fixtures have a dip and your ears may have this at another frequency and that's all one needs for most hifiman headphones.

 

[scolfaro]

Here's my take on it:
When Sundara works for you (comfortable and know its limits and EQ them anyway) I see no need to use other headphones. Just make sure you have some spare pads lying around as pad wear changes tonality.

On EQ... 3 band EQ is all that is needed. There is no need (nor advisable) to use more bands to EQ with 'more precision' to someone's measurement of a copy of said headphone on a certain fixture under certain test conditions. The EQ derived from that will ONLY be exact on that fixture, with that particular mounting(s) and I can guarantee you that test fixtures differ from your ears.
So... A Sundara needs to be compensated in the lows to get them to conform to Harman target (but also to taste/your tonal balance in your studio).
The upper midrange dip has to be compensated... again, this is partly personal so here too one can use a 'starting point' and adjust to your hearing/monitors.
Then you need to lower the treble peak (which they have but are in an area where standard test fixtures have a dip and your ears may have this at another frequency and that's all one needs for most hifiman headphones.

Thank you for your reply, it definitely makes sense!

Now my impulse to look for an upgrade has only to do with finding something with better definition/transients.

I've used an LCD-X for a few sessions with a partner, and although after correction the balance got similar, the Audeze just felt faster and with better channel matching. But the weight is unbearable...

So I wonder if there's anything in Hifiman's lineup a little faster than a Sundara with a similar balance and low distortion?

 

[solderdude]

'speed' is in the upper midrange of the frequency response and all headphones (when EQ'ed to the same target) will be able to sound pretty similar.
Chances are the EQ for the Audeze and EQ for the Hifiman may have not ended up as envisioned by the applied EQ leaving the Audeze with an apparent 'faster' sound.
Both headphones are capable of reaching 20kHz so have enough 'speed'.
That said, the Audeze have much better damped membranes where the hifiman usually have poor damping above the upper midrange.
When resonances do not lead to peaks (or dips) but only show themselves in ringing length that might well be audible with some recordings/instruments.

Sundara waterfall:

Audeze LCD2(Fazor):

Ringing in the hifiman is notoriously poor/bad for all models.
Below the Edition XS:

The uber expensive Susvara is one of the better damped hifiman but rings a lot around 4kHz:

Below the (dynamic) HD490Pro:

And the Avantone Pro Planar (which is tonally not the best but reacts well to EQ) but is also heavy (560 gram):

 

[scolfaro]

'speed' is in the upper midrange of the frequency response and all headphones (when EQ'ed to the same target) will be able to sound pretty similar.
Chances are the EQ for the Audeze and EQ for the Hifiman may have not ended up as envisioned by the applied EQ leaving the Audeze with an apparent 'faster' sound.
Both headphones are capable of reaching 20kHz so have enough 'speed'.
That said, the Audeze have much better damped membranes where the hifiman usually have poor damping above the upper midrange.
When resonances do not lead to peaks (or dips) but only show themselves in ringing length that might well be audible with some recordings/instruments.

Sundara waterfall:

Audeze LCD2(Fazor):

Ringing in the hifiman is notoriously poor/bad for all models.
Below the Edition XS:

The uber expensive Susvara is one of the better damped hifiman but rings a lot around 4kHz:

Below the (dynamic) HD490Pro:

And the Avantone Pro Planar (which is tonally not the best but reacts well to EQ) but is also heavy (560 gram):

Wow, thank you for that!!!

That rings a lot of bells (no pun intended!). The few times I was sure I had finished something, only to go into a spur of last minute wrong interventions, were caused by a while of listening with the Sundara and focusing on high-mid vocal harshness on females and especially Male de-essing (happens often around 6-7kHz).

Probably also that's my perception of speed, if things "linger", then the space between two events gets drowned out while making judging levels much harder, that definitely would explain the crisper highs on the Audeze.

Knowing that while referencing, and doing frequent A/B listens over my monitors has already improved my day's work, those graphs are invaluable. Good vibes your way, good sir!

Also, would the Dan Clark Aeon be something free of that nasty ringing?

 

[solderdude]

I only have AEON open and closed measurements from the originals (MrSpeakers)
AEON closed:

AEON open:

 

[JanesJr1]

'speed' is in the upper midrange of the frequency response and all headphones (when EQ'ed to the same target) will be able to sound pretty similar.
Chances are the EQ for the Audeze and EQ for the Hifiman may have not ended up as envisioned by the applied EQ leaving the Audeze with an apparent 'faster' sound.
Both headphones are capable of reaching 20kHz so have enough 'speed'.
That said, the Audeze have much better damped membranes where the hifiman usually have poor damping above the upper midrange.
When resonances do not lead to peaks (or dips) but only show themselves in ringing length that might well be audible with some recordings/instruments.

Sundara waterfall:

Audeze LCD2(Fazor):

Ringing in the hifiman is notoriously poor/bad for all models.
Below the Edition XS:

The uber expensive Susvara is one of the better damped hifiman but rings a lot around 4kHz:

Below the (dynamic) HD490Pro:

And the Avantone Pro Planar (which is tonally not the best but reacts well to EQ) but is also heavy (560 gram):

Re: Sundara distortion: I have really enjoyed my DCA planars because of their tight, full, realistic bass. However, although my Sundara has significantly higher bass distortion, i often find it subjectively euphonic. For example, when I get in the mood for something with blues guitar, I will often listen with the Sundara, because of audible resonance that can give a bass guitar a little extra growl (depending on the instruments and the music). And so forth. As I think others may have mentioned, the Sundara is also tolerant of bass EQ to get closer to Harman, and I have other phones that are not so tolerant.

 

[phoenixsong]

Wow, thank you for that!!!

That rings a lot of bells (no pun intended!). The few times I was sure I had finished something, only to go into a spur of last minute wrong interventions, were caused by a while of listening with the Sundara and focusing on high-mid vocal harshness on females and especially Male de-essing (happens often around 6-7kHz).

Probably also that's my perception of speed, if things "linger", then the space between two events gets drowned out while making judging levels much harder, that definitely would explain the crisper highs on the Audeze.

Knowing that while referencing, and doing frequent A/B listens over my monitors has already improved my day's work, those graphs are invaluable. Good vibes your way, good sir!

Also, would the Dan Clark Aeon be something free of that nasty ringing?

I recall the budget HE-4XX having cleaner CSD measurements than most other Hifiman headphones though