With EQ, Hifiman Sundara or HE400se?

[jack1]

Hello all. I am thinking about buying Hifiman Sundara. I am going to use the headphones WITH EQ.

Yesterday I saw solderdude's post at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/sundara-or-other-choice.45208/#post-1612277 which says that "With EQ (the correct EQ is the tricky part for treble) there is not much difference (again...WITH EQ) between HE400SE and Sundara." As HE400se is less expensive than Sundara, HE400se seems like a better choice. WITH EQ, which one would you choose, Sundara or HE400se?

Thanks.

 

[pioterd]

Sundara or HE400se?

With EQ, absolutely HE400SE. You will save a lot of money to spend for example on better cable (not due to sound, but ergonomics).

 

[solderdude]

With and witout EQ absolutely the Sundara ... if one had to choose between those 2 models.
Its more expensive but better build quality, better comfort, fit (at least to me) and slightly better sounding without EQ (slightly different kind of sharpness).

When the goal is to buy an open planar headphone in that price range I would urge you to consider the FiiO FT1 PRO unless one has big ears.... then perhaps the Edition XS.
The FiiO is much more sensitive than the Hifiman and can be driven by a phone to loud levels.

I would definitely consider the FiiO when the choices appear to be just between HE400SE and Sundara.

When price is the deciding factor: HE400SE but seeing you are considering the Sundara as well ... the FT1 PRO would be best pick.

 

[InfiniteJester]

Edition XS.

So the distortion you measured is definitely not an issue...

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Currently try Hifiman Edition XS
Amazing amazing value, it's cheaper than both of mentioned headphones.

 

[Xombul]

Sundara is way more confortable than the He400se. You must soften the "synthetic leather" band of the He400se to make it just acceptable. With a proper EQ, https://github.com/jaakkopasanen, I am unable to ear any difference. Wavelet is a good option for mobiles to apply EQ.

 

[zebra-f]

I'm having the same problem.

Currently (on AliExpress, from the official store, taxes included):

• HE400se (non-stealth): $70.90
• HE400se (stealth): $122.56
• Sundara: $186.34

The HE400se (non-stealth) seems like the best deal, but it's hard to find any reliable comparisons between it and the stealth version. Then the Sundara starts to look more appealing, because the stealth version sits in a weird position where it's easy to justify spending a bit more. But is it really worth it in my case, considering how much I'll actually use them? Probably a couple of 1-hour sessions a month… At the same time, I'm really curious about the Sundaras at this price.

I would also like to know how well those are built and whether the HE400se are really that uncomfortable. For the record, I had Shure SRH440, and the hotspot was killing me.

Lastly, the bigger the soundstage the better.

 

[roladyzator]

I think the Sundaras are worth it. Maybe you'll get to listen more, I certainly wish you that

I've had the HE400SE for a year or so and switched to the Edition XS, but did audition the Sundara.
I've listened without EQ using a FiiO KA15 and was impressed with how clean the treble sounded in comparison to the XS / Arya / Ananda that were on the same table.
I didn't notice as many colorations in the treble as there were with the egg-shaped ones.

If I was looking for less colored sound, I'd take the Sundara over the XS, but it just turned out I like this kind of brightness and the bass they produce especially with EQ is something I like a lot.

From memory it's hard for me to compare the Sundara to the HE400SE. "Cleaner treble" is what comes to mind, but that's such a cliche.
I think it's still a fantastic headphone, although I didn't get to listen to the FiiOs that are being recommended.

I have a large head (I think so) and HE400SE and Edition XS are very comfortable to me. I find the suspension strap in Ananda and Sundara to be somewhat too stiff, or too short. Or maybe I didn't adjust them correctly.

 

[zebra-f]

I am unable to ear any difference.

Would you say that also applies to the soundstage? If that's the case, or if they're close enough, it's a no-brainer and I'm getting the HE400se (non-stealth). I would also like to know: are those proper open-backs, where the difference between them and closed-backs (or IEMs) is big when it comes to soundstage and instrument separation? I got the Moondrop Old Fashioned lately, and even though I love the sound, I'd say the difference is marginal. Even though the sound is somewhat "cleaner" or "lighter," the soundstage or separation is not there. I was hoping for something else. To be fair, some reviews also pointed that out.

 

[mlsstl]

I've had both models and prefer the Sundara for sound and comfort. Gave the HE400s to a friend.

 

[zebra-f]

During upcoming sale on Aliexpress Sundara will cost 165$, additionaly you can get at least 20$ off with a coupon and I have some major expenses next two months... I will probaby wait for summer sale or something, but it's tempting.

 

[inselwissen]

Haven't used the Sundara, but I would like to add that the HE400se can be pretty comfortable when you add a Capra strap for 25 bucks.

I am also sensitive to hotspots and this solves that issue completely. I also massively prefer the comfort of HiFiMAN's round ear cup designs to the egg shaped ones, but that's debatable. Hated the Edition XS for comfort.

I think the HE400se stages well. It can be a bit distant sounding due to the upper midrange dip that all HiFiMAN headphones seem to exhibit. Once you fill that in, the stage shrinks but imaging and seperation improve for me.

My HE400se had a pretty severe driver mismatch that I had to correct for via L/R preamp settings. According to reports, QC of entry-level HiFiMAN headphones seems to be hit or miss across the board. I would keep that in mind for both the HE400se and the Sundara and order somewhere with a decent return policy.

 

[zebra-f]

My HE400se had a pretty severe driver mismatch that I had to correct for via L/R preamp settings. According to reports, QC of entry-level HiFiMAN headphones seems to be hit or miss across the board. I would keep that in mind for both the HE400se and the Sundara and order somewhere with a decent return policy.

That's what mostly holds me back.

I think the HE400se stages well. It can be a bit distant sounding due to the upper midrange dip that all HiFiMAN headphones seem to exhibit. Once you fill that in, the stage shrinks but imaging and seperation improve for me.

I'm mostly interested in the 'wow' effect compared to closed-back headphones (for cheap though ). Is there a big difference, or is it small one, both in terms of separation/imaging and soundstage?

As I said, I bought the Moondrop Old Fashioned, and I'm somewhat disappointed. There is some difference, but it's not as big as I had hoped. What's funny is that the change is much more noticeable when switching from them to closed-back headphones than when going from closed-back to them.

 

[zonk]

The Sundara has better headband and earcups are out of metal instead of plastic. Therefore for me the constructon of the Sundara is a bit better.
Here measurements of both headphones:
- HE400SE measurements
- Sundara measurements

For the actual price the Sundara is a very good offer and is less than half of the price as at the time of product introduction.

Someone mentioned the Fiio FT1 Pro (I don't know this headphone, so I cannot say anything about it). But here are measurements for the Fiio:
- Fiio FT1 Pro measurements

 

[InfiniteJester]

I guess you're interested in a planar headphone, but the Sennheiser HD 550 is currently the best option for people interested in open-back headphones, in my opinion. The soundstage isn't huge, but the frequency response and comfort are great. The driver matching is extremely good, which is something you may not get with Hifiman. I'm starting to think a big soundstage goes against precise timbre anyway.

 

[inselwissen]

That's what mostly holds me back.

I'm mostly interested in the 'wow' effect compared to closed-back headphones (for cheap though ). Is there a big difference, or is it small one, both in terms of separation/imaging and soundstage?

As I said, I bought the Moondrop Old Fashioned, and I'm somewhat disappointed. There is some difference, but it's not as big as I had hoped. What's funny is that the change is much more noticeable when switching from them to closed-back headphones than when going from closed-back to them.

Soundstage is hard to quantify in absolutes because it's a psychoacoustic phenomenon that differs from person to person. Some people experience an "out of head" presentation while others hear sound more "between the ears".

I've shared this article on here a few times in the past days: https://headphones.com/blogs/features/soundstage-is-much-more-complicated-than-you-think

I experience soundstage more than the author seems to but it's a great read and I agree with most of the takes in the piece. Here's my own experience. Highly subjective, of course:

Don't expect headphones to surpass even cheap speakers in a room in terms of staging. Headphones are limited in what they can do in terms of width and height.

Closed-backs and IEMs generally stage worse than open-backs.

Even within the category of open backs, more open feeling headphones stage wider, probably due to the psychoacoustic effects of the feeling on your head.

Imaging and stage width are diametrically opposed. The closer you get to a "natural" sound, as expressed by e. g. a Diffuse Field curve, the better the imaging and seperation becomes. At the same time, stage width becomes more closed in. I suspect that's why a HD600 sounds so intimate.

Every headphone I"ve heard that's renowned for its huge soundstage has been wonky in terms of tuning and timbre. I think it's FR colorations that produce much of the spaciousness people perceive with headphones. Classic examples are the upper mid dip in HiFiMAN headphones or the lean lower mids in Harman-tuned headphones. With the HE400se, I can feel the stage width shrink while filling in that 1-2 kHz dip, for example.

Have you tried using EQ with the Moondrops? Maybe EQ them to tilted DF and then cut around 200 Hz and/or 1-2 kHz to simulate these kinds of tunings.

Edit:

I'm starting to think a big soundstage goes against precise timbre anyway.

Snuck in there while I was typing up my novel. 100 % my own findings.

 

[zonk]

I guess you're interested in a planar headphone, but the Sennheiser HD 550 is currently the best option for people interested in open-back headphones, in my opinion. The soundstage isn't huge, but the frequency response and comfort are great. The driver matching is extremely good, which is something you may not get with Hifiman. I'm starting to think a big soundstage goes against precise timbre anyway.

The Sennheiser HD560S is to mention here too and it's much cheaper than a HD550. In the Sennheiser Outlet the HD560S is actually for 100€ available.
- Sennheiser HD550 measurements
- Sennheiser HD560S measurements
It's always interesting to read what's written in the comment section of the measurements.

 

[InfiniteJester]

The Sennheiser HD560S is to mention here too and it's much cheaper than a HD550. In the Sennheiser Outlet the HD560S is actually for 100€ available.
- Sennheiser HD550 measurements
- Sennheiser HD560S measurements
It's always interesting to read what's written in the comment section of the measurements.

I have never owned a 560S, but I have two 599s. They are excellent value for money, but only after EQ. The 550 is good without EQ; it doesn't have the 'veil' that the 599 has.

 

[FelixKD]

I thought the HE400 sounded clearly more low-fi overall and in princple. That is not something an EQ can fix. However it was quite a few years ago, so I couldn't get much more specific. (I had to look it up in old order history, I had tried the HE400i. To start with, I would say it sounded much rougher, thinner and more "basic". Even if it had all the details and may have "nice" qualities... For example, the Final Fantasy X theme I think sounded especially nice on it! There you go... I guess most headphones have such specific experiences.)