Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

[scolfaro]

I only have AEON open and closed measurements from the originals (MrSpeakers)
AEON closed:

AEON open:

So after some more reading and browsing around, I believe I have two options for an upgrade (even if I'm keeping the Sundara, which I am ).

Dan Clark Aeon 2 Noire, or Audeze LCD-2c, I've found two of each reasonably priced around where I live, and one of each relatively new and seemingly in good condition.

What would your pick be out of those? Btw my DACs offer 90mW, 210mW and 0.7W per channel. The Audeze can be driven by all, the DCA might need a new amplifier for my portable rig (I guess), so the LCD-2c has sensitivity going for it. The DCA has good weight and travel capabilities going for it. Those factors notwithstanding, what would your picks be?

Ah yes, I forgot I might be able to monitor recording sessions like an ultimate boss with closed back headphones (am normally using an m50x or hd280pro for that).

 

[scolfaro]

Also opinions are welcome from anybody with experience with both headphones (and for that matter the Aeon Flow or RT could also be an option, maybe involving taxes and difficult shipping but hey...).

 

[radix]

So after some more reading and browsing around, I believe I have two options for an upgrade (even if I'm keeping the Sundara, which I am ).

Dan Clark Aeon 2 Noire, or Audeze LCD-2c, I've found two of each reasonably priced around where I live, and one of each relatively new and seemingly in good condition.

What would your pick be out of those? Btw my DACs offer 90mW, 210mW and 0.7W per channel. The Audeze can be driven by all, the DCA might need a new amplifier for my portable rig (I guess), so the LCD-2c has sensitivity going for it. The DCA has good weight and travel capabilities going for it. Those factors notwithstanding, what would your picks be?

Ah yes, I forgot I might be able to monitor recording sessions like an ultimate boss with closed back headphones (am normally using an m50x or hd280pro for that).

I have the DCA Aeon 2 Noire (for a closed) and the Sundara (for an open). I use EQ on both (slightly modified Oratory). I have the RME ADI2 FS DAC, which can drive them both, and does the EQ. I tend to reach for the Sundara more often, if I do not need the closed back. I find them a bit more comfortable. The EQ'd sound on both is, IMO, excellent, but that's my opinion based on my limited experience (i.e. I have only 6 cans to compare). And there may be a good dose of confirmation bias in there.

Before the RME DAC, I had a Topping DX3+. I don't think it was up to the DCA. IIRC, I got better sound from the RME. But I only had the two DACs for a brief period, and I had other problems with the DX3+ (clicks on rate changes) that also biased me against it. I switched headphone amps maybe 3-4 years ago, so the details of the sound difference are vague at best.

 

[solderdude]

Dan Clark Aeon 2 Noire, or Audeze LCD-2c, I've found two of each reasonably priced around where I live, and one of each relatively new and seemingly in good condition.

Very different in comfort (weight, room for the ears). LCD-2classic or LCD-2closed ?

What would your pick be out of those? Btw my DACs offer 90mW, 210mW and 0.7W per channel. The Audeze can be driven by all, the DCA might need a new amplifier for my portable rig (I guess), so the LCD-2c has sensitivity going for it. The DCA has good weight and travel capabilities going for it. Those factors notwithstanding, what would your picks be?

The question is not what I would prefer (both are good headphones) but which one you prefer (fit and comfort).
They sound very different when not EQ'ed so the question is would they also be used without EQ now and then ?

Ah yes, I forgot I might be able to monitor recording sessions like an ultimate boss with closed back headphones (am normally using an m50x or hd280pro for that).

Monitoring can be done on all headphones.... unless you also monitor for tonality (without EQ) unless one is fully aware of tonal characters and knows how this translates to 'good recordings).
For monitoring (long time periods) comfort may well be a more deciding factor.

 

[scolfaro]

Very different in comfort (weight, room for the ears). LCD-2classic or LCD-2closed ?


The question is not what I would prefer (both are good headphones) but which one you prefer (fit and comfort).
They sound very different when not EQ'ed so the question is would they also be used without EQ now and then ?


Monitoring can be done on all headphones.... unless you also monitor for tonality (without EQ) unless one is fully aware of tonal characters and knows how this translates to 'good recordings).
For monitoring (long time periods) comfort may well be a more deciding factor.

LCD-2 Classic, I've read it's at least about 200g lighter than the LCD-X (from 2020 or so) that I used. I might be able to EQ them all the time, provided the choices I make while EQing them are consistent enough to assist me and not misguide me while working

Ah yes, three bands too, on Auto-EQ it seems I can get both to hit the target with 3 bands.

Lastly, over the years I've developed a feeling for what a good miked source sounds like while recording, as I assume most people who do this long enough do.

I have also learned that I can't monitor with some headphones (like the 770 or 241) because I just miss details and run into problems later. The 280 and m50 (or even m30) bring me closer to where I need to be (so that I don't get "surprised" by something while mixing later), but I do monitor for tonality all the time. What's more relative is the difference it would make, to go from "good enough" to " outstanding" while tracking other people, and whether it would force me to rethink microphone positioning choices etc.

 

[scolfaro]

Very different in comfort (weight, room for the ears). LCD-2classic or LCD-2closed ?


The question is not what I would prefer (both are good headphones) but which one you prefer (fit and comfort).
They sound very different when not EQ'ed so the question is would they also be used without EQ now and then ?


Monitoring can be done on all headphones.... unless you also monitor for tonality (without EQ) unless one is fully aware of tonal characters and knows how this translates to 'good recordings).
For monitoring (long time periods) comfort may well be a more deciding factor.

Just an update, I ended up going for the Audeze's, the sound after EQing is incredible, just as the dynamics, which they seem to do way better than the Sundara. Without EQ it makes me wonder who tunes them But it took me about 15 minutes to get them to feel like big studio monitors in a great room, and they make a lot of sense with my tuned 2.1 Neumann system, with more definition and a touch more dynamic (transients feel very easy to judge in them).

They absolutely weigh less than the LCD-X that was a bit more horror scenario in the ergonomy department, but I am still trying to ascertain if I am gonna be able to work with them, I now have about 25 days to decide

Thanks a lot for your input!

 

[fragzone]

Just an update, I ended up going for the Audeze's, the sound after EQing is incredible, just as the dynamics, which they seem to do way better than the Sundara. Without EQ it makes me wonder who tunes them But it took me about 15 minutes to get them to feel like big studio monitors in a great room, and they make a lot of sense with my tuned 2.1 Neumann system, with more definition and a touch more dynamic (transients feel very easy to judge in them).

They absolutely weigh less than the LCD-X that was a bit more horror scenario in the ergonomy department, but I am still trying to ascertain if I am gonna be able to work with them, I now have about 25 days to decide

Thanks a lot for your input!

Thanks for the update. I am a long time Sundara owner (slightly modified harman) and compared to my other array of headphones, it has stood head and shoulders above all else in terms of soundstage and imaging. The way you described the Audeze as "big studio monitors" is how I have feel about the Sundara, reminiscent of a nearfield setup as opposed to say, the all encompassing closed in soundstage of the 6XX.

One month on, how are you feeling about the Audeze? Is the sense of scale and timbre (with EQ of course) holding up? Have you reached for the Sundaras? This feels dangerous to ask.

 

[scolfaro]

Thanks for the update. I am a long time Sundara owner (slightly modified harman) and compared to my other array of headphones, it has stood head and shoulders above all else in terms of soundstage and imaging. The way you described the Audeze as "big studio monitors" is how I have feel about the Sundara, reminiscent of a nearfield setup as opposed to say, the all encompassing closed in soundstage of the 6XX.

One month on, how are you feeling about the Audeze? Is the sense of scale and timbre (with EQ of course) holding up? Have you reached for the Sundaras? This feels dangerous to ask.

You're welcome well, I'd say the Sundara absolutely has 3 things going for it against the Audeze, comfort (mostly just way lighter) and portability. For that reason, I am keeping mine as my "road" setup. And lastly sound out of the box, the Sundara are very close to good without EQ and get great with it, the Audeze are poor without EQ and outstanding with. But since they're so huge, I am guessing they just became a part of my studio desk

I am likely buying Fosi audio's portable amp to bump the Sundara up to 4.4 balanced because they sounded much better on the Adi 2-FS than even the ucx-2, so the Babyface Pro FS (my mobile interface) is likely not getting the best out of them for my out of studio time. The giant Audeze actually are much easier to drive, I had to adapt the setup with much less gain to keep knobs where they were.

And now's the part you are afraid of, the dampening, bigger driver and more efficient design are all obvious. The EQd Audeze is much better to my ears than the Sundara with the exception of a touch wider soundstage on the Hifiman. So I just put them in their travel bag and hung it on one of the wall hooks and kept the Audez hooked to the converter.

The upgrade I imagined is the upgrade I got, the sustained notes are relatively similar, but attack is a no-contest (transients and everything fast is just clearer), pauses are much more audible (the dampening) and the bass is much better defined, tactile even. In the analogy of monitors, going from Sundara to LCD-2 Classic was like increasing the room and monitor sizes. And probably that "fleshed out" bass is what causes the gentler Sundara to feel a touch wider, so even that isn't necessarily a win. The Audeze is easily a much more dynamic headphone, and I guess that's their greatest strength (a Thomann guy said that they had that over the DCAs too).

 

[scolfaro]

Ah yes, channel balance is also a no-contest, flipping the "mono" switch in my controller with Sundaras on reveals how uneven L and R are, there's always a lingering feeling of width in the low-mids on mine, whereas the Audeze turns really mono, proper phantom center. Even the Hexa IEM is way better in that regard, so I'd say that is a significant flaw with the Sundara (possibly a QC issue).

But they're still brilliant over ears, comfortable and very good performers. They're probably still the best "portable" planars you can have at the moment.

 

[Deleted member 71304]

Hi everyone,
I would like to purchase this headphones and just found that there is a huge difference in price (400€ / 250€) being the silver one more expensive (see attached photos)
Could it be possible that there are 2 different versions (maybe with different quality) of this model?

 

[Bernard23]

Hi everyone,
I would like to purchase this headphones and just found that there is a huge difference in price (400€ / 250€) being the silver one more expensive (see attached photos)
Could it be possible that there are 2 different versions (maybe with different quality) of this model?

According to Amazon (for the silver model)

• Utilising a new, hi-tech diaphragm means that the diaphragm is 80% thinner than was on the previous series. This results in more detail, faster transients and an extended frequency response.
• New headband design offering a separate head strap which allows for the headphone weight to be spread perfectly evenly over the wearers head. It delivers both a more comfortable fit but also a more eye pleasing look.
• The all new Headband gives a structure intended to be as practically street friendly, built to take the wear and tear of everyday life while looking great as it does it.
• The Headphone cable attachment uses the standard 3.5mm socket which gives improved connectivity and is more physically robust connector too.
• This latest version of SUNDARA now is supplied with newly improved earpads for enhanced durability and a newly upgraded cable made with stronger, further improved materials (of OFC wire) custom designed for the headphone.

For the black:

• Featuring Newly Developed Diaphragm that is 80% Thinner than the HE400 Series Resulting in a Wider Frequency Response, Faster and More Detailed.
• With the weight spreading strap for outstanding comfort but with a more fashion conscious look with its sleek and sumptuous matte black finish
• With its all metal headband the SUNDARA is built to take the rigours of urban street life. The SUNDARA is as tough as it is beautiful
• New 3.5mm Headphone connector for enhanced durability.
• This latest version of SUNDARA now is supplied with newly improved earpads for enhanced durability and a newly upgraded cable made with stronger, further improved materials (of OFC wire) custom designed for the headphone
• Please allow for a period of “burn in” where you allow playback of audio for a period of 150 hours to allow the headphones to reach their fullest audio potential

Make what you will of that

Google AI says:

The HiFiMan Sundara headphones are available in both black and silver, and have similar specifications:

• Frequency response: 6 Hz–75 kHz
  
  
• Impedance: 32–37 ohms
  
  
• Sensitivity: 94 dB
  
  
• Cable: 3.5 mm stereo mini jack with a detachable, dual-sided cable
  
  
• Weight: 355–440 g
  
  
• Driver: Planar magnetic
  
  
• Ear cups: All aluminum ear enclosure
  
  
• Design: Over-ear, open-back

 

[scolfaro]

I would say they haven't been update since the pad change that happened I guess around 2020. That you can get around also by, you know, buying new pads from them. One thing I would point out here, if you want to really listen to how they actually can sound you need power (and EQ). I have used them on 4 different devices/amplifiers, and they sounded the best when connected to a 1.100 mWatt Fosi SK02 through balanced cables (4.4mm output). They also sounded good with the 700mWatt 6.5mm stereo out of the RME ADI-2-FS, but everything below that felt flat, the least amount of power that got them workable was 240mWatt through the Fireface UCX-2, but I can tell they were subdued in comparison the ADI and SK02.

 

[Deleted member 71304]

I wrote Hifiman's customer service a couple days back and today got my answer:
"Please be assured that both the silver and black are the same version. "

 

[Deleted member 71304]

I would say they haven't been update since the pad change that happened I guess around 2020. That you can get around also by, you know, buying new pads from them. One thing I would point out here, if you want to really listen to how they actually can sound you need power (and EQ). I have used them on 4 different devices/amplifiers, and they sounded the best when connected to a 1.100 mWatt Fosi SK02 through balanced cables (4.4mm output). They also sounded good with the 700mWatt 6.5mm stereo out of the RME ADI-2-FS, but everything below that felt flat, the least amount of power that got them workable was 240mWatt through the Fireface UCX-2, but I can tell they were subdued in comparison the ADI and SK02.

Oh thanks for the info - I did not think of that ... I got the JDS atom amp 2 (Amirm reviewed it positively and commented it could drive drive his D.Clark's with no troubles... if I remember correctly)

 

[scolfaro]

Oh thanks for the info - I did not think of that ... I got the JDS atom amp 2 (Amirm reviewed it positively and commented it could drive drive his D.Clark's with no troubles... if I remember correctly)

You're welcome it was a long process to learn that and it was only clear after running them with the balanced cable that bumps the power to 1.1w, so there's even a noticeable difference between 0.7w and 1.1w, which is absurd for headphones that actually can get powered through phone amps.

BUT, and that is what got progressively clearer, they get basically thinner sounding the weaker the amp is, and once you bump the low-end up through EQ you cannot get them loud anymore. With enough power the low-end blooms properly even if subdued a touch, and when you EQ it in place -nothing- distorts.

They are sort of sold as not needing a good amp to work, but that is their weakness in reality, they are good without an amp, and outstanding with a lot of power, whereas the Audeze need much less power to sound right (it changes very little going up or down in power all the way to 90mWatt).

 

[orangefx]

Hi everyone,
I would like to purchase this headphones and just found that there is a huge difference in price (400€ / 250€) being the silver one more expensive (see attached photos)
Could it be possible that there are 2 different versions (maybe with different quality) of this model?

silver and black are differently tuned models, according to my listening experience, german hifiman distribution sieveking and other websites. i recommend the silver version.

 

[isostasy]

Hi everyone,
I would like to purchase this headphones and just found that there is a huge difference in price (400€ / 250€) being the silver one more expensive (see attached photos)
Could it be possible that there are 2 different versions (maybe with different quality) of this model?

Comparison on GRAS clone

 

[Bernard23]

I've narrowed down a pair of sensibly priced planar open backs to these and the Edition XS. I've owned the Sundara previously, and preferred them out of a bunch I tested at the time, including HD600, HD650, but swapped them out for LCD-X. For multiple reasons I've come back almost full circle, am I correct in presuming that the Sundara are going to need significantly more EQ in sub bass than the XS to get close to my preference target. Even without a bass lift, it's going to need over 7dB at 20Hz. My JDS Element had no problem, not sure a Fosi ZH3 in SE mode will be enough.

 

[Ufasas]

If anyone thought if Fiio K13 is good enough for Sundara, it's amazing, unlocks it how it should, sound is full and rich, liked Fiio K7 for 2-3 years, just K13 is with more features and sounds very musical with Sundara, haven't gone to k7 since i got k13 this week

 

[frogmeat69]

If anyone is interested, these are $159 at Amazon, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077XDWT7X/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1GH37DDIGH3L6&psc=1