Hifiman HE400SE Review (Headphone)

[AryaStealth]

Yes, I tried this EQ already, I thought you had one that was fine tuned.

 

[Spitfire93]

are those a good counter part for HD650 ? I am looking for something with more bass/sub bass presence or should I save for something else ? Source is a Sabaj D5 if it matters.

 

[staticV3]

are those a good counter part for HD650 ? I am looking for something with more bass/sub bass presence or should I save for something else ? Source is a Sabaj D5 if it matters.

In red is the response difference between the HD650 and HE400se (data from oratory1990):


Compared to the HD650, the HE400se has very slightly more subbass, slightly less midbass, but most prominently a deep midrange recession and treble boost thereafter.

If you're after an HD650 but with more bass, then the HE400se is probably not the best choice.

Of course all that changes when you use EQ, as then you can make the response whatever you want.

 

[Oso Polar]

Of course all that changes when you use EQ, as then you can make the response whatever you want.

Yes, with EQ HE400se are capable of very impressive bass, something that HD650 just can't do! Also, very unlike HD650, HE400se have a very open and spacious sound.

 

[roladyzator]

I've got mine today for 400 PLN, which is the equivalent of $100.
The box says Stealth Magnets and 32 Ohm.
The cable in the box is black and not tangly at all.
The seller (official distributor in Poland) described these as "Version 2022".

They're really comfortable and the pads seem to be breathable, good for hot weather.

I'm surprised my Creative GC7 can output quite a lot of power to these, given that it has 10 Ohm output impedance and 3 dB of SPL is already lost due to that, and my EQ preamp is -9.3 dB.

Without EQ even a smartphone can get reasonably loud, although I have to max out the volume.

Stock sound is quite OK and from memory better than my other open-back headphones without EQ, which are Sennheiser HD 700 (really shit without EQ), AKG K702 (very shouty and bright without EQ).
The bass and treble seem to match what's measured here for me.
I find them too shouty with Oratory1990's EQ, I have to reduce the 2 kHz gain a bit.
Not sure if it's just my ears and taste or if Hifiman improved upon these with this 2022 version.

I need to do proper comparisons yet, but I'm already liking those a lot.

 

[roladyzator]

So I did some comparisons with what one of their competitors in Poland, the AKG K702, which go for 620 PLN / 160 USD currently.

I don't think the K702 are worth the extra 60 USD over these.
After EQing they're similar enough for the choice to be a matter of preference, not superiority of one vs. another.
Having spent some few years with K702, I've decided to lend these to my young cousin who has just started showing interest in audio.
If he likes them, he can keep them
In short, the HE400 SE are more forward and aggressive sounding to me, with a treble boost that I like with my musical choices.

If you're interested in my biased, subjective impressions, read on.
Otherwise, let me just thank Amir for posting the review so I could decide to buy these based on something more than just hype or FOTM.

Back to impressions:
Without EQ the K702 are lean and shouty, so I use them with Oratory1990's recommended settings with some adjustments.
To give the HE400SE a fair chance, I've also applied Oratory's EQ to it.

The difference wasn't what I expected to be honest.
I expected better bass and the HE400SE seemed to go a little deeper, but the EQ settings for them had a sub-bass shelf, which wasn't there for a K702.
Maybe with some effort I could have got them to sound the same.
Bottom line, the K702 didn't really lack anything in that department when EQed.

Now I'm confused about two things often said about planars:
- the "planar bass" is more powerful and deeper than a moving coil driver's bass
- planar sound has less "impact" or "dynamic slam" than a moving coil driver
I've read / heard this many times in planar reviews, most notably on headphones.com but not only there.
Don't these two statements contradict each other? Shouldn't I get more "impact" and "slam" with deeper (reaching lower frequencies) bass?
Or maybe the HE400SE is "too cheap" or rather "too conventional" (no egg-shape or huge drivers) to have the "planar sound"?

Other than that, the HE400SE seemed more forward, lively, direct, etc. in the upper mids and treble.
Since I do have more "laid-back" sounding open-backs in the form of Sennheiser HD 700 (with EQ, of course), I don't see a reason to keep the K702.

 

[Keerati]

I own HE400SE (stealth magnet), Edition XS, and AKG K371. For planar bass, I would recommend you to try it with headphone amp that can produce >1W of power. I previously use HE400SE with usb-c dongle (Tempotec Sonata HD II). It gave me loud enough volume, but I later found out that dongle/headphone amp can be current limited (can produce high enough voltage, but cannot produce high enough current).

After I use it with headphone amp, the bass is much more powerful and deeper. By the way, I guess "planar sound has less "impact" or "dynamic slam" than a moving coil driver" comes from the current limited headphone dongle/amp. Because planar drivers usually require more current than dynamic drivers.

 

[Keerati]

For dongle, Fiio KA11 can produce enough voltage/current for Hifiman Edition XS (well, for my preferred listening level). I think Fiio KA11 is good enough for HE400SE as well, but I didn't test it extensively (just test it with HE400SE a few times as Edition XS is my main driver).

 

[roladyzator]

After I use it with headphone amp, the bass is much more powerful and deeper. By the way, I guess "planar sound has less "impact" or "dynamic slam" than a moving coil driver" comes from the current limited headphone dongle/amp. Because planar drivers usually require more current than dynamic drivers.

That to me sounds like a difference in frequency response and I am yet to hear about a case in which having spare power improves frequency response. Do you have any more information on that that's backed by measurements or controlled listening tests?

I tried to figure this out on my own and I do not see how I need 1W to have a different bass response.
Allow me to elaborate.

Test devices:

• Measurement device: Creative GC7 sound card with its line-in.
• Playback device: Shanling M0 DAC / DAP with specified 2V rms output into higher impedances and up to 80 mW below 40 Ohm (so 80 mW limit applies to the HE400SE).
• Headphones: 32 Ohm HE400SE purchased new few days ago.
• Connectivity: A 3.5mm jack splitter. Single end connected to M0's headphone out, doubled ends connected to HE400SE and GC7's line-in.

Preparation:

• Generated a 0 dbFS sine wave in REW and played it using the M0. The input signal level was determined to to be -2.37 dBFS, which is now my reference for 2 V RMS.
• Applied Oratory1990 EQ for HE400SE (with 2 kHz set to 4.5 instead of 7 dB), which has a total positive gain of 9.3 dB at 20 Hz thanks to two bass shelfs (at 30 Hz and at 105 Hz).
• Checked the RMS and true peak value (including inter-sample overs) of "Sol" by "Solar Fields" from the 2009 Movement album. I ripped the track to FLAC from an original CD.
  Results: RMS: -11.41 dBFS, true peak: +0.62 dBTP.
• Knowing of the additional Windows limiting for singals exceeding -0.13 dBFS, (lookup the "Ending the Windows Audio Quality Debate thread on ASR), I set the pre-amp to -10.1.

Test process:

• Play a loud part of the track, set the volume to way too loud and reduce it until it's very loud, but not painful yet.
  This is too loud for longer than a minute of listening IMO, but should reveal power limitations more easily.
• Play back the 0 dBFS 1 kHz sine wave and check the level in the line-in.
• The level was -5.49 dBFS, which translated to 61 mW (1.4 V and 44 mA).
  This is the worst case if the music has sub-bass content at 0 dB.
• The above level is 109 dB SPL RMS or 112 dB peak SPL.
  With this track it means the RMS level was 100 dB SPL.

Further tests:

• Played back RMAA test signal with this volume setting and analysed the results compared to M0's maximum volume into line-in (which has a very high impedance and very little current draw).
• The results show that there is no significant change in FR or distortion metrics and the slight difference in noise can be explain by lower output volume.
• There is a degradation in crosstalk, but that's likely because it's not measured properly in this scenario. The common ground return wire is adding crosstalk that's not heard in the headphones. I recall @solderdude explained this somewhere in the forum.

Am I missing something, or is there any reason to believe that having over 15 times more power (when 60 mW is already too loud for me) can improve the perceived bass response and give it that "planar bass" quality?

 

[Keerati]

Driving headphones properly​

Driving headphones properly

What is important to drive headphone properly? In many other forums i read that not just the voltage but also the current is very important and some headphones like high current output, but usually most amplifier only strong with voltage and thats why many hard to drive phone sounds bad from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[roladyzator]

Driving headphones properly​

Driving headphones properly

What is important to drive headphone properly? In many other forums i read that not just the voltage but also the current is very important and some headphones like high current output, but usually most amplifier only strong with voltage and thats why many hard to drive phone sounds bad from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This thread also confirms there is no mysterious mechanism that will somehow translate power reserves into better sounding bass.

I did measure the output at the worst case - the loudest signal level at a very loud volume (representing loud listening with 10 dB or more of bass boost) and there was no current limiting on my devices. If there was, I'd see higher distortion metrics.

Sure, I still have power left to add few more dBs at the bass frequencies, and the bass does sound fuller and more impactful then. Obviously.

But I don't think you were talking about having more power avaliable to increase the bass output via EQ, or were you?

 

[solderdude]

Now I'm confused about two things often said about planars:
- the "planar bass" is more powerful and deeper than a moving coil driver's bass
- planar sound has less "impact" or "dynamic slam" than a moving coil driver
I've read / heard this many times in planar reviews, most notably on headphones.com but not only there.
Don't these two statements contradict each other? Shouldn't I get more "impact" and "slam" with deeper (reaching lower frequencies) bass?
Or maybe the HE400SE is "too cheap" or rather "too conventional" (no egg-shape or huge drivers) to have the "planar sound"?

Sorry for W.O.T. but the answer is a bit more complex than it seems and am trying to explain for 'the public'.

There is a lot of nonsense around regarding headphones, specifically on more subjective forums.

Planar headphones usually are 'measurable flat' between 20Hz and 1kHz (without any target applied) where dynamics usually are not.
Planar headphones generally have much lower distortion in the 20Hz to 1kHz range at higher SPL

'Impact' and 'slam' are subjective descriptors and are SPL dependent. For 'impact' and 'to slam harder' headphones need to be turned up in volume to experience just that 'phenomenon'.
The 'slam' and 'impact' people usually don't like to EQ headphones and use them as they are and generally dislike Harman bass as it is 'too much' at higher SPL. Harman bass target is fine at normal to 'a bit louder than comfortable' listening levels.

To get good 'slam/impact' you need good bass extension, good linearity (so no bass boost, but slight roll-off is no problem) in the 20Hz - 1kHz range, high SPL (and some really like to crank them up to experience that) and low distortion. Planars usually are good at that.
Slam and impact is higher up in the frequency range and consists of no resonances in the lowest frequencies, lightly emphasized overtones of bass drum and bass notes and free of distortion.
This is exactly what Planars can do well and a some dynamics don't do as well.

Then there are people that describe what they hear as 'slam' or 'impact' but are hearing something else and are just 'talking along' with others.

lower amp output can prevent high undistorted SPL (phones, dongles etc.) but usually have no FR issues so it is not an FR issue but available power issue.
Up until barely loud SPL (loud for whom?) dongles can drive insensitive (or inefficient) headphones well but to experience 'slam' and 'impact' usually more power is needed.
For 'normal' SPL most headphones usually require little power (in the mW range).

Also an amp needs to be able to deliver peak power in music and average power or SPL at 1kHz is as good as immaterial. Also it never hurts to have a few dB of extra 'power' available that is never used. That is always better than clipping amps when one (occasionally) wants to crank the music up and 'really feel it' even for just a minute or so.

This is where the 'you need power to get the most out of them' story comes from.
Here's the thing.... with higher power amps you are simply never going to clip less efficient headphones. This is where the 'you need power to get the most out of it' comes from.
Now... the HE400SE really does not need much power but say HE6(SE) or similar efficiency headphones do and there can easily be 10dB difference in efficiency between said headphone models. 10dB = 10x more power so while the HE400SE would draw 100mW peaks to get inefficient (usually planar) headphones to the same SPL you need 1W and to go (momentarily) a bit louder (but not even twice as loud) you may need 4W of power. Regardless if one at more 'normal' listening levels never reaches more than 1mW or a few mW average.

People tend to believe that to drive (planar) headphones you thus need a lot of power and the more you have the better it will sound at lower levels as well. This belief is where the fairy tales come from. Fairy tales at normal levels but hard facts at (momentary) loud peak levels.

So.. one usually does not require more than several mW of power to enjoy music but when you really like to crank it up AND one also has inefficient (not necessarily insensitive) headphones lying around and want all headphones to reach 'fun/impressive but irresponsible' levels you might need an amp that can drive those not all too common planars.
The fact that the uninitiated hear the word 'planar' and thus assume 'I am going to need power to enjoy them' makes them think the 'you need powerful amps' stories and simply regurgitate that what they read from 'experts' that occasionally crank it up when reviewing.

HE400SE is 106dB/V at 1kHz (Amir found 104dB/V at 400Hz) and about 103dB/V at 20Hz. People don't hear SPL they hear in Phons and at 20Hz even 100dB SPL is just 40Phon so perceived as loud as 1kHz at 40dB which is not loud, certainly because headphones are lacking tactile feel.
This is a confounding factor (EQ of subsonics). As most bass note fundamentals are above 30Hz 100dB is already 80 Phon and harmonics (the slam/impact) is higher up even the SPL and Phons are almost the same. So this is about how loud one wants to hear subbass extension (good seal important, except for planars).

This is the second and not unimportant factor to this 'slam' thing. You hear bass extension better at higher SPL and don't need EQ there so a reason why you don't need 'Harman bass' and 'flat' is good enough at higher SPL (where slam/impact is).

To reach impressively loud SPL (bass notes + rest of the sound all added up in the signal) for HE400SE one would require to reach (momentary) 120dB peaks with high DR recordings and lots of bass extension the amp would need to reach 5V (in 28ohm) = 0.9W
However, playing normal DR music quite loud (at moments) only requires 110dB to be reached. = 1.8V = 110mW
When never playing very loud one only needs to reach 100dB peak SPL = 0.5V = 10mW or so... peak.

Safe to say most HE400SE owners would not need more than 100mW of power (32ohm) and those that value their hearing even less.

And to answer the question... having 10W available will make no difference even at somewhat loud levels but many believe it does as in those cases one never draws (power is not 'pushed' but 'drawn') more than 100mW peaks in general. (which is what you found with a lot of experimenting as well).
BUT ... folks owning insensitive planars and really like to make them 'sing' (play impressively loud with great bass extension/impact/slam) might well need amps >1W.
That's the (complex) story about the 'needs power' issue.

One usually doesn't but some occasions might require higher max. available power levels. In case of planars having more power available is not a bad thing. It could be when one also owns high sensitivity/efficiency head/ear phones with low power ratings (20-30mW rated).. I recommend not to use those on power amps.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Here where I live the price has dropped to about 92€
I don't really need them but for the price... I couldn't resist. Owned them some time ago but now I'm back, with EQ these are really very good to listen.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

This thread also confirms there is no mysterious mechanism that will somehow translate power reserves into better sounding bass.

Correct, unfortunately people on subjective forums think differently and spread misinformation over and over.

 

[Swin]

Here where I live the price has dropped to about 92€
I don't really need them but for the price... I couldn't resist. Owned them some time ago but now I'm back, with EQ these are really very good to listen.

Where did you buy them, the prices in EU is all over the place, from about 160 EUR for the V2 version to the price you found.

Cheapest seems to be rms store at 98 EUR, but then they want to add 34 EUR in shipping costs..

 

[InfiniteJester]

Where did you buy them, the prices in EU is all over the place, from about 160 EUR for the V2 version to the price you found.

Cheapest seems to be rms store at 98 EUR, but then they want to add 34 EUR in shipping costs..

AliExpress Spain has the V2 at 87,34€ with free shipping.

It is a steal at this price.

 

[PeterNL]

AliExpress Spain has the V2 at 87,34€ with free shipping.

It is a steal at this price.

Ali or Amazon ?

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Where did you buy them, the prices in EU is all over the place, from about 160 EUR for the V2 version to the price you found.

Cheapest seems to be rms store at 98 EUR, but then they want to add 34 EUR in shipping costs..

Polish stores, for example rms.pl or mp3store.pl
But I dont know about shipping costs to EU countries.
I picked them locally so the price was a bargain.

I can't think about better headphones in that price category (up to 100bucks) - assuming you are using EQ

 

[InfiniteJester]

Ali or Amazon ?

Please, read the first word in the comment you quoted.

 

[PeterNL]

Please, read the first word in the comment you quoted.

Ok, sorry I didn't know that aliexpress is different for each country, like amazon.nl .fr .pl. ...offers different deals.