Help refresh my 90s-era setup

[holla]

Hi,
First post, please excuse me if it's in the wrong place or spectacularly naive etc. It's longer than I wanted it to be; apologies for that.

I have had the same hifi system since around 1990 when my father kindly gave me his gear as he upgraded and I turned 18... That was 32 years ago so according to arithmetic I am about to turn 50 and the same kind father is asking if I would like the system refreshed a bit. Things are very different now so I am wondering which elements to improve or what to add.

The system was this:
- Linn Axis turntable; could not tell you what the tonearm is, probably Basik?; Goldring 2100 cartridge added a few years ago after damage to the original
- Arcam Alpha 8R integrated amplifier (I think this was not what I originally had in 1990, maybe arrived a few years later)
- JPW Sonata speakers

Thanks to a local dealer's closing down sale, I've acquired a pair of KEF R3 speakers, so that's what is now in the system.

The setup is in a room 5mx3m which is my home office, and is full of records The amp has a second speaker output which drives a pair of speakers in the kitchen below. Audio quality in the kitchen is not a serious concern -- it's always pretty noisy in there anyway.

Things I have never had in my hifi, and don't know much about, but could add:
- a good quality digital source
- DSP stage for EQ/room correction
- subwoofer

Things that could potentially be upgraded:
- power amplifier
- preamp
- phono stage
- turntable / arm / cartridge

I am pretty much set on adding a good digital source. Though I like putting records on and have a fairly decent collection, I also have quite a bit of music on a hard drive and I get stuff from bandcamp quite often in FLAC. I think a raspberry pi running volumio and an appropriate DAC would be my choice here.

What of the other additions or changes would you suggest I prioritise?

The amp is a puzzle to me. Since it is so old, it is very hard to know how good it is by today's standards. I have not found measurements anywhere. It does seem to drive the R3s ok at the low volumes I listen (60-65dB SPL according to an iphone app). Given its age, the included phono stage is not an afterthought, and my records sound pretty good to me, so maybe that is not a priority. Other than that I don't know what might be worth doing.

All thoughts much appreciated! Thank you.

 

[Triliza]

Seems so, but just to double check, you aren't interested in any multichannel/home theater setup for that room, right?

 

[holla]

Seems so, but just to double check, you aren't interested in any multichannel/home theater setup for that room, right?

No, just music. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify!

 

[Triliza]

No, just music. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify!

I asked because an AVR would cover most of your needs. I don't have any experience with turntable and what's involved with it, but imho the best first step you can take is to add a minidsp flex (with Dirac) to your setup. From what I understand the flex will work as an pre-amp, so you connect phono stage to it. I don't own one, but I suppose adding later a sub to it will be relatively easy.

Your speakers are great, don't have a clue about the amp, but if it doesn't clip and you are pleased with what you're hearing, keep it for the time being. I have a Raspberry with Moode and works great.

 

[digitalfrost]

If you like the turntable as-is, I would be hesitant to spend a ton of money here. Good turntables cost more than in the past, if only by economies of scale and you got a good turntable already. If you have nothing to complain about leave it as is. That said, a cartridge is always an upgrade no matter what, at least until you get to advanced needle shapes like Shibata. That could be explored.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

If your system sounds good to you, even after auditioning what's out there now, then just keep what you have and enjoy. With me, I simply keep stuff (like horn speakers and tube amps) so long that they eventually come back into fashion and suddenly I'm 'cool'.

 

[delta76]

Your simplest solution is a stereo receiver. But as a niche market they are pretty expensive for what they offer. Just go with a AVR that has decent room correction feature and you will be good. I know, you might think that they are inferior compared to other hifi options, but they are really not, very good performance for great price.

 

[delta76]

There are several options from onkyo, pioneer (dirac), marantz, denon (audyssey). I'd be damned but x3700h has everything you need. I am again recommending it

 

[GXAlan]

I would consider the new Denon PMA-900HNE since Denon has been on a roll with their latest products, knowing that they are often measured here and even the basic AVR’s punch well above their weight.

【レビュー】 ミドルクラス最強!? ネットワークアンプが中核、デノン「900NE」

いきなり個人的な話だが、「自分がオーディオ始める時に、こんな単品コンポシリーズあったら最高だったろうなぁ」と思う製品が存在した。デノンが2018年に発売した「800NE」シリーズだ。

av.watch.impress.co.jp

If you use google translate, they have adopted the same topology as the PMA-A110 which had some good reviews. The benefit of this is that you get moving coil support, network streaming, DAC all in one. The DAC may not be state of the art, but probably at least as good as the X3700H.

It’s only 50W per channel, but if you are fine with your Arcam, it should be good.

Second upgrade/tweak is to add a turntable with a moving coil cartridge if listening to vinyl is something you enjoy. MC sounds different than MM though it wouldn’t be fair to say that it’s universally better for all music/LPs. Having two turntables let’s you switch more easily than dealing with the cartridge.

 

[SMc]

Hi,
First post, please excuse me if it's in the wrong place or spectacularly naive etc. It's longer than I wanted it to be; apologies for that.

I have had the same hifi system since around 1990 when my father kindly gave me his gear as he upgraded and I turned 18... That was 32 years ago so according to arithmetic I am about to turn 50 and the same kind father is asking if I would like the system refreshed a bit. Things are very different now so I am wondering which elements to improve or what to add.

The system was this:
- Linn Axis turntable; could not tell you what the tonearm is, probably Basik?; Goldring 2100 cartridge added a few years ago after damage to the original
- Arcam Alpha 8R integrated amplifier (I think this was not what I originally had in 1990, maybe arrived a few years later)
- JPW Sonata speakers

Thanks to a local dealer's closing down sale, I've acquired a pair of KEF R3 speakers, so that's what is now in the system.

The setup is in a room 5mx3m which is my home office, and is full of records The amp has a second speaker output which drives a pair of speakers in the kitchen below. Audio quality in the kitchen is not a serious concern -- it's always pretty noisy in there anyway.

Things I have never had in my hifi, and don't know much about, but could add:
- a good quality digital source
- DSP stage for EQ/room correction
- subwoofer

Things that could potentially be upgraded:
- power amplifier
- preamp
- phono stage
- turntable / arm / cartridge

I am pretty much set on adding a good digital source. Though I like putting records on and have a fairly decent collection, I also have quite a bit of music on a hard drive and I get stuff from bandcamp quite often in FLAC. I think a raspberry pi running volumio and an appropriate DAC would be my choice here.

What of the other additions or changes would you suggest I prioritise?

The amp is a puzzle to me. Since it is so old, it is very hard to know how good it is by today's standards. I have not found measurements anywhere. It does seem to drive the R3s ok at the low volumes I listen (60-65dB SPL according to an iphone app). Given its age, the included phono stage is not an afterthought, and my records sound pretty good to me, so maybe that is not a priority. Other than that I don't know what might be worth doing.

All thoughts much appreciated! Thank you.

If your amp seems fine, it is fine. If it's in good condition and you're used to how it works, I'd not be in a hurry to replace it. I still use a Linn Majik from the 90s that has outlasted four AVRs.

Because your Alpha has a preamp output, I believe you could use that to connect a subwoofer (assuming the sub has the appropriate filters which most all of them do) so you don't necessarily have to have an AVR to add a subwoofer. You also might find the R3 has plenty of bass as is.

The pi plus DAC should be okay for your digital files although something like the Wiim streamer might be easier to use for the streaming services (Spotify, etc).

If you want to add DSP, you could use the processor/tape loop connections for something like a miniDSP product or a pro-audio home compatible eqs. Check out one the threads on home measurements for beginners to see if that's something you'd like.

You've already made the biggest change with new speakers. Changes to the electronics will be minimal and possibly unnoticeable in comparison. That said, get the turntable serviced!

​

 

[Vince2]

The biggest update might be to consider getting a streaming source at cd quality. Having access to superior recordings is priceless. Not sure where you live and what streaming services you have available. You may never touch your record collection again.

 

[holla]

Thanks everyone! If nothing else the replies here make me realise there is no straightforward path... I wasn't expecting the AVR suggestion at all so that is very interesting. Indeed I was not aware that there were boxes such as the two Denon things mentioned here. My guess is that the phono stage on the x3700h is probably a bit sub-par compared to my existing Arcam: the Alpha 8R was considered a fairly decent amp in its day and phone stages were a key part of any system at the time. (I did hack up a simulation of the phono circuit from the 8R in LTSpice and the RIAA curve looked pretty good, but simulation and practice may not agree, so who knows?) As for the PMA-900HNE, as far as I can tell it does not incorporate the room correction stage, which is perhaps frustrating: while it would give me the DAC and network player functionality, I could get those functions from other devices.

I kind of expected to hear either "you must find a way to add a sub" or "you must incorporate PEQ/room correction of some kind", but I guess there's no firm consensus? Perhaps what I expected was a philosophy that goes: take your sources, EQ them properly, amplify as transparently as possible. (Of course I still don't know how transparent my amp is -- an amp considered decent by the 1990 hifi community could still be quite distorting, couldn't it?)

MiniDSP Flex was one thing I had already thought about -- thanks for reminding me. I could add it before the amp, using the Arcam only as a power amplifier. The issue would be that, if I use the Arcam to drive my two sets of speakers, any EQ would apply to both. So I could set up my main room with tailored EQ, and that would then be applied in the kitchen space as well. So the question is: how negative an effect might that have on the sound in the kitchen? If it's likely to remain in "acceptable" range then that would be ok I think. But I have no idea myself.

I think it's right to say that messing with the turntable is probably not the biggest bang-for-buck change I could make, though it would be interesting.

Hmmm, still puzzled really, but thank you for the ideas!

 

[Willem]

The amplifier will be transparent, but may need to be checked and perhaps have the capacitors replaced, which may or may not be economical, given that a similar new amplifier such as the Yamaha AS301 will not cost that much. If you opt to replace it, go for something more powerful such as the AS701, however. The biggest quality boost would be from a digital source such as a dirt cheap Chromecast Audio streamer or a Sonos unit. The Sonos AMP is now a very attractive option although its connections are limited. Beyond that, two small subwoofers would be nice (two would be my minimum), preferably equalized by e.g. Multi Sub Optimizer.

 

[delta76]

Thanks everyone! If nothing else the replies here make me realise there is no straightforward path... I wasn't expecting the AVR suggestion at all so that is very interesting. Indeed I was not aware that there were boxes such as the two Denon things mentioned here. My guess is that the phono stage on the x3700h is probably a bit sub-par compared to my existing Arcam: the Alpha 8R was considered a fairly decent amp in its day and phone stages were a key part of any system at the time. (I did hack up a simulation of the phono circuit from the 8R in LTSpice and the RIAA curve looked pretty good, but simulation and practice may not agree, so who knows?) As for the PMA-900HNE, as far as I can tell it does not incorporate the room correction stage, which is perhaps frustrating: while it would give me the DAC and network player functionality, I could get those functions from other devices.

I kind of expected to hear either "you must find a way to add a sub" or "you must incorporate PEQ/room correction of some kind", but I guess there's no firm consensus? Perhaps what I expected was a philosophy that goes: take your sources, EQ them properly, amplify as transparently as possible. (Of course I still don't know how transparent my amp is -- an amp considered decent by the 1990 hifi community could still be quite distorting, couldn't it?)

MiniDSP Flex was one thing I had already thought about -- thanks for reminding me. I could add it before the amp, using the Arcam only as a power amplifier. The issue would be that, if I use the Arcam to drive my two sets of speakers, any EQ would apply to both. So I could set up my main room with tailored EQ, and that would then be applied in the kitchen space as well. So the question is: how negative an effect might that have on the sound in the kitchen? If it's likely to remain in "acceptable" range then that would be ok I think. But I have no idea myself.

I think it's right to say that messing with the turntable is probably not the biggest bang-for-buck change I could make, though it would be interesting.

Hmmm, still puzzled really, but thank you for the ideas!

sub and room correction are essentials. if you read reviews of speakers here, score with a perfect sub is always significantly higher - simply because no speakers can produce low bad as good as a sub. you are missing quite a lot without a sub.

as for phono stage, you can always add one. however, if you go streaming, it would be so much easier. objectively, quality is higher as well, but you will need some time to adjust from vynil to CD-equivalent quality

 

[holla]

sub and room correction are essentials. if you read reviews of speakers here, score with a perfect sub is always significantly higher - simply because no speakers can produce low bad as good as a sub. you are missing quite a lot without a sub.

as for phono stage, you can always add one. however, if you go streaming, it would be so much easier. objectively, quality is higher as well, but you will need some time to adjust from vynil to CD-equivalent quality

Thanks for this. Very clear statement on subwoofer and room correction That's very helpful and also helps explain your reason for suggesting the Denon AVR above -- it is one answer to the obvious question at this point: "how do I integrate a subwoofer and room correction?" Which could probably become another thread.

I am 100% sure that the best quality would come from a digital source and I intend to add one for sure. But I do still want to be able to play my records, for emotional reasons if nothing else.

 

[delta76]

AVR is designed for the mass (still not everyone, I was a bit overwhelmed at first), so it's very easy to use. just setup your system (2.1), plug in the microphone (supplied with the AVR), and it will start the calibration process for you. of course, you can do better with things like REW + UMIK-1 + DSP, but MultiQ XT32/Dirac is very decent, and for beginner I would even think it will yield better results

if you have a local retailer which allows "try at home", go there, get a AVR and a sub (SVS is very popular, for a reason, good P/P), then try it.

 

[Willem]

One thing to be aware of is that this is a small room. Therefore, room modes will reach higher frequencies, and any dsp room eq at such higher frequencies will be more localized to the one and only listening postion. The only remedy (other than avoiding subs) is to have at least two (small) subs for a smoother response over a wider area, and use the probably best subwoofer equalizing software: Multi Sub Optimizer. This will require some work, unfortunately. You can get started already by buying the cheap but excellent calibrated UMIK-1 microphone and use the free REW software to measure the current in-room response. It is unlikely to be pretty.
As for the subs themselves, SVS are a good buy in the USA, but far less so in Europe.

 

[restorer-john]

Have the amplifier tested, the speakers tested and most likely, keep them both and continue to enjoy what was (and still is) good gear.

 

[holla]

One thing to be aware of is that this is a small room. Therefore, room modes will reach higher frequencies, and any dsp room eq at such higher frequencies will be more localized to the one and only listening postion. The only remedy (other than avoiding subs) is to have at least two (small) subs for a smoother response over a wider area, and use the probably best subwoofer equalizing software: Multi Sub Optimizer. This will require some work, unfortunately. You can get started already by buying the cheap but excellent calibrated UMIK-1 microphone and use the free REW software to measure the current in-room response. It is unlikely to be pretty.
As for the subs themselves, SVS are a good buy in the USA, but far less so in Europe.

This is interesting -- thank you. I don't mind putting in some work to measure and adjust things; in fact I fear I may end up enjoying that a bit *too* much, but let's see.

I am UK based so you seem to be suggesting looking at something other than SVS -- do you have any starting points? Obviously I should get stuck in to some research on this too.

 

[delta76]

This is interesting -- thank you. I don't mind putting in some work to measure and adjust things; in fact I fear I may end up enjoying that a bit *too* much, but let's see.

I am UK based so you seem to be suggesting looking at something other than SVS -- do you have any starting points? Obviously I should get stuck in to some research on this too.

Bkelec is considered best p/p over there.