HBK Headphone Measurement Talks from Head-Fi and Sean Olive

[GWolfman]

Does he actually own that Sennheiser? Or was he just saying that was the best he has heard. Sort of like saying that the best car I drove was the time I got to drive a vintage F1 car.

Good point.

 

[solderdude]

I heard the HE-1 as well (there were no measurements yet).
Best headphone I heard for sure.
To me it is 'effortless' and completely 'disappearing'. You just hear the actual recording, great 'separation' and 'realism' with not typical stat-like bass.
A headphone that came close (but no cigar as it starts to clip before you know it) was the Sonoma.

I don't own it, nor will I ever, I haven't measured it but my memory of it was... its the best.

 

[preload]

I'll end the discussion with this:
As a mere reader of this thread, having partaken neither in the panel, nor in the QA session, so purely based on how you've communicated your criticism of Jude to your readers, your reasoning comes off as a little weak-footed.
That may very well be simply because I was not there and I have yet to meet the man in person.
Still, it ends up leaving a bit of a bad aftertaste.

Meh. I'm guessing you're not that familiar with Jude's reputation or with Head-Fi, becaude if you had that context, Amir's stated opinions wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. Either that or you're a Head-Fi shill - which is also plausible because as others have pointed out, there are a lot of them.

 

[AudioManNewb]

Well, curiosity killed the cat, or at least burned a $60 hole in my pocket.

I picked up a pair of these JBL Tune 710 BTs at Microcenter today. They are on sale at Microcenter for $60 instead of the list price of $80. They come in white, black, or a sharp-looking dark blue. I could not resist the sharp-looking dark blue. Seemed like a can’t miss proposition.

TL : DR — These inconspicuously designed and very inexpensive phones seem to have exceptionally good, even reference-quality, sound in active mode, with okay to moderately good comfort, good isolation, excellent battery life, and light-weight, durable construction. They would appear to be a wonderful bargain and could be a fun and fascinating data-point in one’s search for high-fidelity headphones.

Pairing with my Iphone was excellent. Comfort is moderately good for me but not Bose QC 35 II or Senn HD 580 or Beyer level comfort. Comfort is definitely the weak point for these phones. They fit a little tight and ideally the pads would be a little softer. Long-term listening could be problematic due to less than stellar comfort.

I am no golden ears or expert but I would have to say that for me tonality and fidelity these JBL Tune 710 BTs seem marvelous, better than any other headphone I own. All I could ever ask for. Confirmation bias? Maybe!! To me deep bass seems awesome but not overdone, highs are noticeably feathery and well-balanced, and mids seem clear but not out of proportion.

Isolation is pretty darn good for something with no active noise reduction. They do give up some ground in terms of comfort, noise reduction, or the open-air experience, to some other phones, depending on what you are looking for. I’m sure there are some Bluetooth artifacts involved during wireless use but I don’t think I’m sensitive enough to them to worry about it.

Thanks yet again ASR, and to Dr. Olive. Exactly what superlatives are appropriate or whether these are just a flash in the pan I will leave to others more expert or opinionated than I am.

P.S. They come with a headphone cable for wired use and a USB charging cable. They are lightweight and seem very sturdy. When used with the headphone cable instead of wirelessly the electronics don’t seem to engage but sound is still surprisingly enjoyable for me, though pretty certainly not nearly as good as when used wirelessly. I assume that in wireless mode some really excellent EQ is applied. I‘ll leave it to someone else to figure out exactly what is going on with that.

I did the exact same thing today at my local microcenter. Was going for the black but since it was sold out grabbed the blue and it does look nice. The tuning on it is amazing you have to ear it to believe it for $59.99 if you are a harman target lover this definitely hits that mark. The comfort tho sadly is abysmal it is like a on-ear/over-ear hybrid and the clamp force is pretty high.

 

[amirm]

So why should Jude not trust his ears in order to state that these are his favorite headphones?

Because I don't trust his ears. And you should not either as there is no test of whether his hearing is reliable or not (research shows reviewers are poor in this regard). That aside, once more, he is making a presentation at a measurement conference. The point was that his pronouncement that his favorite food was Tofu at a beef convention, was odd.

 

[Robbo99999]

I heard the HE-1 as well (there were no measurements yet).
Best headphone I heard for sure.
To me it is 'effortless' and completely 'disappearing'. You just hear the actual recording, great 'separation' and 'realism' with not typical stat-like bass.
A headphone that came close (but no cigar as it starts to clip before you know it) was the Sonoma.

I don't own it, nor will I ever, I haven't measured it but my memory of it was... its the best.

I was able to spend a good 90 minutes with the HE-1 at the Sennheiser factory in Wennebostel, and I also had the chance to listen to Tool's full 'Fear Innoculum' album over the HE01 the Sennheiser store in Sydney. Both times I was able to use my own source and listen uninterrupted. I can confidently say it's the best headphone I've heard, and I've not sighted any measurements of it before.

View attachment 157205

I really think it's important to A/B headphones in the same sitting if you have to come to a conclusion about "best headphone you've ever heard". I think this would go for Jude as well. It's very easy to forget how a headphone sounds, so I think you've got to A/B it in the same listening session to get a closer to truth comparison. I've experienced the same problem when EQ'ing my headphones and thinking I've created an awesome EQ which has transformed my headphone, then I'll listen to one of my other headphones for a comparison reality check and realise that I hadn't transformed that headphone and it's still not as good. It's very easy to quickly forget what a headphone actually sounds like (& how good/bad it is).

 

[solderdude]

I really think it's important to A/B headphones in the same sitting if you have to come to a conclusion about "best headphone you've ever heard".

While I agree with this sentiment for the average headphone user I don't think it is needed for experienced listeners. But to reassure you, at the same time the (by that time it was not even launched yet and the first day it was ever gone public) HD660S, the HD650 and the HD800S were also there as a comparison. Have owned the HD650 for over 10 years and owned HD800.
Once you hear the HE1 stand alone you'll know this is excellence. No need to EQ anything. It is 'real' from the start.
When you heard and measured over 100 headphones... you'll know if something sounds good or not.
No doubt Jude also has heard/reviewed many headphones as well.

Read a few posts here and there of people not liking it. They probably prefer certain sound signatures.

 

[Deleted member 27694]

Because I don't trust his ears. And you should not either as there is no test of whether his hearing is reliable or not (research shows reviewers are poor in this regard). That aside, once more, he is making a presentation at a measurement conference. The point was that his pronouncement that his favorite food was Tofu at a beef convention, was odd.

Just out of curiosity, how good are your ears? I would assume you are 50+ and if I remember correctly you have a mild form of tinnitus. Afaik the upper hearing limit of humans decreases with each decade by about 2000 Hz. Would you say the information lost in the high range due to your age is absolutely unimportant? (I would assume you can still hear a maximum of 12000Hz).

 

[Thomas_A]

Just out of curiosity, how is your hearing? I would assume you are 50+ and if I remember correctly you have a mild form of tinnitus. Afaik the upper hearing limit of humans decreases with each decade by about 2000 Hz. Would you say the information lost in the high range due to your age is absolutely unimportant? (I would assume you can still hear a maximum of 12000Hz).

Hearing ability is also individual. I am 54 and my limit is 16k.

 

[amirm]

Just out of curiosity, how is your hearing? I would assume you are 50+ and if I remember correctly you have a mild form of tinnitus. Afaik the upper hearing limit of humans decreases with each decade by about 2000 Hz. Would you say the information lost in the high range due to your age is absolutely unimportant? (I would assume you can still hear a maximum of 12000Hz).

My "hearing" is well above average as I am a trained listener, able to listen critically and identify aberrations that audiophiles cannot. In the last audiologist test I had, it showed well above average response in mid frequencies, but naturally age related reduction in highs. When I measure headphones, I ignore the response above 10 kHz. The response errors in headphones is completely dominated in bass and mid-range frequencies. So fortunately for us older folks, we are still able to characterize major issues in their responses until we literally go deaf.

Are you finding that your issues with headphone response is above 12 kHz? If so, how did you ascertain that?

 

[ifloatoveryou]

I heard the HE-1 as well (there were no measurements yet).
Best headphone I heard for sure.
To me it is 'effortless' and completely 'disappearing'. You just hear the actual recording, great 'separation' and 'realism' with not typical stat-like bass.
A headphone that came close (but no cigar as it starts to clip before you know it) was the Sonoma.

I don't own it, nor will I ever, I haven't measured it but my memory of it was... its the best.

Funnily enough, Oratory1990 has measured the HE1 and created an EQ profile for it, though doesn't think using EQ is necessary.

Jude's favorite headphone adheres very well to the harmon curve, going by Oratory's measurements. Jude was asked if he measured this headphone, and he simply answered that he did not. Jude had an opportunity to talk about how well his favorite headphones measure at a headphone measurement conference, and I suspect he chose not to due in part due to a conflict of interest, as Amir suggests. He also may be unaware of the HE1's measurements, or simply chose not to answer a question that wasn't asked - 'How do the HE1s measure?' is a different question than 'Did you measure the HE1s?'

 

[Deleted member 27694]

My "hearing" is well above average as I am a trained listener, able to listen critically and identify aberrations that audiophiles cannot. In the last audiologist test I had, it showed well above average response in mid frequencies, but naturally age related reduction in highs. When I measure headphones, I ignore the response above 10 kHz. The response errors in headphones is completely dominated in bass and mid-range frequencies. So fortunately for us older folks, we are still able to characterize major issues in their responses until we literally go deaf.

Are you finding that your issues with headphone response is above 12 kHz? If so, how did you ascertain that?

No issues. My assumption would be that above 10 oder 12 kHz is of no importance for the reproduction of music and therefore headphones.

 

[Deleted member 27694]

Hearing ability is also individual. I am 54 and my limit is 16k.

54 >15k? All due respect I doubt that very much.

 

[Thomas_A]

54 >15k? All due respect I doubt that very much.

Well to clarify I dont hear 16k and above for pure or warbling tones. For masked sounds like white noise the limit is 14-15k. Point being that it is individual and not fixed limits.

 

[Robbo99999]

While I agree with this sentiment for the average headphone user I don't think it is needed for experienced listeners. But to reassure you, at the same time the (by that time it was not even launched yet and the first day it was ever gone public) HD660S, the HD650 and the HD800S were also there as a comparison. Have owned the HD650 for over 10 years and owned HD800.
Once you hear the HE1 stand alone you'll know this is excellence. No need to EQ anything. It is 'real' from the start.
When you heard and measured over 100 headphones... you'll know if something sounds good or not.
No doubt Jude also has heard/reviewed many headphones as well.

Read a few posts here and there of people not liking it. They probably prefer certain sound signatures.

I'm not convinced that having "heard and measured over 100 headphones" helps you to know that the HE1 was the best headphone you've ever listened to, simply because you can't remember how those 100 headphones sounded, no way. I'm also not convinced that experienced listeners don't need to A/B headphones to come to a true conclusion of whether one headphone is better than another....actually I'll revise that I think it's possible for headphones that are significantly different then it's obvious from the get-go....but in terms of concluding the subtleties of "best headphone I've ever heard" then I think that would need to be A/B'd versus your previous favourites, regardless of your experience. You said the HD800s was also there, so if you could compare them side by side & the HD800s was your previous favourite headphone, then yes fair enough.......but you gotta A/B to know for sure when talking the subtleties of "best headphone I've ever heard".

My initial post was not really to cast doubt on your experiences specifically, more so it was to add to what was being said re Jude and his assertions on the HE1 being the best headphone he'd ever heard that went along with the fact he didn't measure them too, so I'm not really here to disprove what you're saying specifically.

 

[solderdude]

I'm not convinced that having "heard and measured over 100 headphones" helps you to know that the HE1 was the best headphone you've ever listened to, simply because you can't remember how those 100 headphones sounded, no way.

Let me give you an example. Without EQ you thought the K702 was great. Then you learned that with EQ it sounded way better.
Now when you listen to a K702 without EQ you immediately recognize it is not sounding as good as when EQ'ed.
When you listen to a HD600 you also know it does not sound quite correct in the lows and certain aspects.
Now you pick up an unknown headphone you might not know exactly what is off but you certainly do know it doesn't sound like your EQ'ed K702 or HD560S.
When you do pickup an awesome headphone that sounds tonally like your EQ'ed favorites but even ' better' in the difficult to point at things and you basically hear every instrument as real as in reality and everything sounds effortless (you have to have experienced effortless to know what I am talking about) then you'll know what I mean. I can assure you HD560S and K702, even with Oratory EQ, do not sound anywhere near 'effortless'.
They are very good sounding headphones. The HE1 is only excellent sounding. The difference is that with the HE1 one can leave out the word 'headphone'. You just listen to excellent music.
Of course there are plenty folks that don't like the HE1. so be it. They may prefer their dark or piercingly bright headphones or U shaped ones.

So you may doubt mine, Jude's and other folks's experiences in this that you know when a headphone sounds good without seeing measurements made by Oratory and EQ'ed acc. to a specific measurement fixture and can fully know that a headphone sounds extraordinarily good without the need to remember the sound of every headphone I (or Jude or Amir or anyone else). That is not even important.

It could be called experience.

 

[Robbo99999]

Let me give you an example. Without EQ you thought the K702 was great. Then you learned that with EQ it sounded way better.
Now when you listen to a K702 without EQ you immediately recognize it is not sounding as good as when EQ'ed.
When you listen to a HD600 you also know it does not sound quite correct in the lows and certain aspects.
Now you pick up an unknown headphone you might not know exactly what is off but you certainly do know it doesn't sound like your EQ'ed K702 or HD560S.
When you do pickup an awesome headphone that sounds tonally like your EQ'ed favorites but even ' better' in the difficult to point at things and you basically hear every instrument as real as in reality and everything sounds effortless (you have to have experienced effortless to know what I am talking about) then you'll know what I mean. I can assure you HD560S and K702, even with Oratory EQ, do not sound anywhere near 'effortless'.
They are very good sounding headphones. The HE1 is only excellent sounding. The difference is that with the HE1 one can leave out the word 'headphone'. You just listen to excellent music.
Of course there are plenty folks that don't like the HE1. so be it. They may prefer their dark or piercingly bright headphones or U shaped ones.

So you may doubt mine, Jude's and other folks's experiences in this that you know when a headphone sounds good without seeing measurements made by Oratory and EQ'ed acc. to a specific measurement fixture and can fully know that a headphone sounds extraordinarily good without the need to remember the sound of every headphone I (or Jude or Amir or anyone else). That is not even important.

It could be called experience.

Yes, I could notice easily that there was something wrong if my EQ wasn't activated on my K702, but that's a massive difference. Subtleties like "best headphone you've ever listened to" I'm quite certain can't be determined without AB'ing unless you've only ever listened to sh*t headphones before. I don't think any amount of experience makes a person immune to this. I'm still not with you on making that grand statement about a headphone without AB'ing, but I'm certainly happy to leave it there.

 

[Kalle]

The HE 1 is so much better than any other headphone setup that many people soon recognize this. You can ask people coming out from the HE 1 listening room. One third of people will tell you that it was the best headphones they had ever listend to and that they would like to buy one immediately if they could afford. Another third will tell you that it was the best headphones they had ever listend to, but nevertheless it is not worth its price in their opinion. And the last third will tell you that they like other models better, such as the LCD-4, Abyss etc. This is the third of people that do not like the Harman tuning. Most flaghip headphones do really polarize, but most listeners will still have to admit that the HE 1 rules. Some may not like its marble look (as I did not do also initially), or its presentation or even Sennheiser, but most people will acknowledge perfection of both technicals and tone in one of very few cases when this occurs together.

 

[Kalle]

Because I don't trust his ears. And you should not either as there is no test of whether his hearing is reliable or not (research shows reviewers are poor in this regard). That aside, once more, he is making a presentation at a measurement conference. The point was that his pronouncement that his favorite food was Tofu at a beef convention, was odd.

Does this mean that you also do not trust Crinacle's and Oratory's measurements? They do measure less comprehensive than you, namely only the frequency response. But the tonal excellence of the HE 1 is hard to deny, just taking a look at their measurements.

I would trust people who favorite Wagyu beef at a tofu convention. ;-)

 

[Alex-D]

Besides the AKG K371, there are headphones costing less than $100 that come close to the Harman Target like this one.
View attachment 156459

Even JBL Tune 710 benefit from some EQ - straightening the bass and particularly filling in 1800hz region

With a basic 10band EQ I came to this UPD
31hz +1,5dB
2000hz +0,5dB
4000hz -0,5dB

Not very comfortable for big head+big ears so I will skip these myself, but they make a great gift